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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

big argument with old friend

117 replies

ramenmonster · 07/12/2024 10:58

Met up with old male (gay) friend and he raised the trans thing. He denied biological reality of two sexes, and told me lots of scientists and doctors would disagree that there is a biological difference between men and women. That men should be allowed in women's bathrooms, in women's sports, prisons. That the biological differences between XX and XY make no difference and those men participating in sports are "real women".

I asked him why it was always men who are telling what women should and shouldn't accept, why men are always the ones who tell us we have to "deal with it" and that apparently helping trans people is more important than women (despite us being the weaker sex and 50% of the population).

After some of the things he said I'm now wondering if he's really just a massive misogynist with no clue about actual women's issues. I'm not sure where our friendship can go from here.

Just venting and asking for some solidarity.

OP posts:

DrBlackbird · 07/12/2024 11:26

popeydokey · 07/12/2024 11:13

That the biological differences between XX and XY make no difference

So he acknowledges that xx is different from xy biologically, or not? Has he managed to contradict himself within two sentences?

There is no logic. Makes it impossible to argue logically.

One TW crowed to me about being ‘biologically stronger’ without the slightest recognition that this acknowledgement of reality removes any TWAW claim. When trying to point out the contradictions between the two claims, I was met with a word salad of gender souls woo.

Circumferences · 07/12/2024 11:23

How old is he?
I'd accept this sort of stuff from a teenager, because let's be fair their brain hasn't fully developed yet.

Original poster

ramenmonster · 07/12/2024 11:19

@RoyalCorgi exactly. The thing was he was coming from a place of real concern about trans people, their struggle and what they are going through in the media at the moment, which I don't entirely disagree with. I think he feels genuinely on the right side on this issue and empathetic etc.

Alongside concern for women, I also have concern for trans people's wellbeing and safety and hate how polarised the argument has become.

That said we can't paper over women's rights.

He's a nice guy usually but I felt I was now being put into a box labelled "bigot" when I tried to explain :(

OP posts:

LoobiJee · 07/12/2024 11:19

“He denied biological reality of two sexes, and told me lots of scientists and doctors would disagree that there is a biological difference between men and women.”

In other words, he’s so deeply committed to men being the boss of women, and to women shutting up and doing as they’re told by bullying men, that he’s prepared to show himself up either as an utter fool or a shameless liar or both.

Given that he claims to believe that there isn’t any form of biological reality differentiating the two sexes, has he and his boyfriend/husband decided which one of them is going to impregnate the other and which one of them is going to be impregnated when they decide to become parents then? Course not. He knows biological sex is real, but he’s prepared to lie about that to keep women in what he’s sees as their place.

He’s just a male supremacist bully. Not a friend.

MarieDeGournay · 07/12/2024 11:16

Solidarity a-plenty, ramenmonste. There's no sugar-coating it: your friend revealed a degree of misogyny which must have been lurking when you thought he was a good friend. Now it's out in the open, and he's not a good friend, and that's hard to take, it's sad to lose a friend like that.

There's a possibility that he's just easily-led and has absorbed all this TWAW/most marginalised/literal genocide stuff because that's what he hears around him, and there's a possibility he'll go away and think deeply about what you said and realise that women in general, and you his friend in particular, deserve better..

But that's a fairy-tale ending, I'm afraid you may have lost a friend who turned out to be not what you believed he was. That's sad and difficult, regardless of the politics, so

Original poster

ramenmonster · 07/12/2024 11:15

@popeydokey he kind of glossed over my arguments saying that doctors would disagree with me. I think he thinks a person is a 100% woman if they feel like one, rather than biology being relevant, and lots of doctors / science is coming around to that point. I was honestly a bit baffled.

OP posts:

RoyalCorgi · 07/12/2024 11:14

The thing about this is that it's so stupid it's just exhausting to reason with. Would you spend your evening arguing with someone who thinks that the earth is flat? That Bill Gates is controlling us through microchips placed in the Covid vaccine? That the world is secretly controlled by mice? Seriously, is there any point? Either your friend is terminally stupid or he knows he's talking rubbish but is motivated to do so through either cowardice or misogyny.

There's a quote from Jane Austen that springs to mind in these situations, in which Elinor Dashwood has to listen to an idiot ranting on: “Elinor agreed to it all, for she did not think he deserved the compliment of rational opposition.”

popeydokey · 07/12/2024 11:13

That the biological differences between XX and XY make no difference

So he acknowledges that xx is different from xy biologically, or not? Has he managed to contradict himself within two sentences?

Original poster

ramenmonster · 07/12/2024 11:13

@popeydokey I know. I just didn't understand at all why he would say that!?

OP posts:

popeydokey · 07/12/2024 11:11

told me lots of scientists and doctors would disagree that there is a biological difference between men and women

That's hilarious! He's gullible with no critical thinking skills?

Or just incredibly dishonest? I don't think anyone who understands how babies are made could come out with this and expect to be taken seriously! (I assume he is on the pill if he doesn't want babies?)

Original poster

ramenmonster · 07/12/2024 11:09

Lottapianos · 07/12/2024 11:04

Solidarity. I had similar with a gay male friend of mine. He was talking to me and another woman friend and he did not get our gender critical points AT ALL. Couldn't see past 'all the transphobia'. When we told him about women's experience of always being vigilant, always risk assessing when out in public, needing female only spaces for safety and dignity, he was absolutely horrified that we were being so MEAN about men 🙄

I was so disappointed in him, and I don't feel the same about him as a friend tbh

I think that's it really. I'm not anti trans rights, I just don't want them at the expense of women's rights and safe spaces, which are there for a good reason. Denying the reality of biological sex was just wild to me and completely unexpected.

It's hard that the issue is so divisive and polarised :(

OP posts:

Brefugee · 07/12/2024 11:06

did you ask him how many trans men he's boinked? and if not why not

You made good points. He believes different and is a misogynist. I would sack him off as a friend, tbh?

Original poster

ramenmonster · 07/12/2024 11:06

to be honest I wasn't expecting the debate to pop up, and was surprised by the depth of the misogyny of his arguments and didn't even think to ask about the gay thing / trans thing. I will be prepared next time if it pops up! However it was a bit of a debate I got the impression he now thinks I am a raving bigot / transphobe :(

I did try to educate him a bit with some of the reasons women feel unsafe about sharing facilities and sport, and misogyny in general.

OP posts:

Lottapianos · 07/12/2024 11:04

I was so disappointed in him, and I don't feel the same about him as a friend tbh

OrangeSlices998 · 07/12/2024 11:01

How can he be same sex attracted then?

If there’s no difference between us then what is trans, what are they transitioning from/to?

lifeturnsonadime · 07/12/2024 10:59

Did you ask him whether he'd be prepared to have sex with a trans man and if not why not?

2024onwardsandup · 07/12/2024 10:59

Did you ask him what being gay meant to him then? If there’s no biological difference then how can he be gay?

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