big argument with old friend

a person is a 100% woman if they feel like one

If they feel like what, a human?
He's saying there is literally no difference between men and women - either physically (which there is no way he actually believes that - he's just lying) or personality-wise.

So how can someone feel like a woman and not a man if they are both just names for the same type of human?

I can only assume he sees 'woman' as a kind of non-human, not really a thing, just an offshoot of the 'real people who count' ie men.
Vile.

That's a good point. If he really wanted to have a child, it's not too big a sacrifice for him to identify as a woman for a few months.

As a gay man, if your friend wished to become a biological parent would he ask a transwoman to carry his child?

Surely he can carry it himself if there is no discernible difference between males and females?

As a gay man, if your friend wished to become a biological parent would he ask a transwoman to carry his child?

😂😂 Oh god that's brilliant.

I get as far as "if you're gay, who would you shag?" But yes, when it comes to procreation that's the cincher

As a gay man, if your friend wished to become a biological parent would he ask a transwoman to carry his child?

There is an article in Unherd about the Menendez brothers who cold-bloodedly murdered their parents. Lived high on the hog on their parent's money before the law caught up with them. There's currently and, to me, inexplicably a campaign to free them. Not because they've served their time, which is arguable, but because they claim the murders were justified!

I am going somewhere with this.

The writer posits that the problem is empathy. The ability to sympathise with your idea of another person. How this creates an enemy of anyone who does not see the same idea, who might see a bigger picture or even the complete opposite.

Although the article is not about transpeople and their supporters, I think the parallels are obvious.

It's here if anyone wants to read it

https://unherd.com/2024/12/the-menendez-brothers-prey-on-empathy/

People can be vicious if they feel their egos are being attacked.

NAGM but many of the gay men I k ow are misogynistic to varying degrees.

When you say, ramenmonster, that your friend is is 'genuinely concerned' about
trans people, their struggle and what they are going through in the media at the moment,
I have to ask: what struggle? what are they 'going through in the media'?

I can't think of any group campaigning for their rights that has had everything handed to them on a plate in just a matter of years - everything they asked for, including the right to self-ID on the basis of nothing but 'feelings'; and on the whole the media has been so pro-trans as to compromise even the most basic objectivity and factual accuracy.

The real struggle has been by women trying to hang on to our basic rights, which it took centuries to achieve, and which have been blown out of the water in a matter of years, at the behest of trans rights activists.

Your friend obviously fell hard for the 'most marginalised/literal genocide' line, but when you write
trans people, their struggle and what they are going through in the media at the moment
you sound like you haven't been completely immune yourself.

Trans people are doing OK, including in the media, and trans rights are doing just fine at the expense of women's rights, so your 'concern for trans people's wellbeing and safety' is superfluous.
Nobody is trying to take trans people's human rights away, and their wellbeing and safety is not particularly under threat.

The same can't be said about women, so concern for women's wellbeing and safety, including from attacks by trans activists, is more justified by the facts.

It's always tough to lose a friend, though, so -

Can you tell what it was that made the penny drop? No worries if it’s too private.

He's a massive mysoginist.

And probably also really not on top of gender ideology at all. It may be too late to raise it now, but it would be interesting to get his reaction to the suggestion that, if there are really no differences between men and women, why has he decided he is attracted exclusively to male bodies? And how does he feel about being called a bigot for not wanting to bump uglies with women who call themselves men?

Something made DH realise recently how women feel about walking home alone at night. He said the penny dropped. It had never crossed his mind to feel unsafe in the dark, but he said "Now I get it, how you feel all the time." He's 63!

It is gaslighting on a massive scale and that is another reason why:

a) the whole thing feels incredibly uncomfortable and
b) why so many mature women recognize transactivism as being an abusive activity - because so many of us have experienced it over a lifetime of relationships of various sorts with men.

Transactivism has been taken over by abusive men. Those defending it are like flying monkeys, who have fallen for the grift and see victims where we see narcissism.

I'm sorry to hear about this, OP. it's really disheartening to be labelled a bigot just for raising legitimate concerns. There are people who are fairly on the fence about this debate who are open to listening to different viewpoints, but it seems futile with your friend as his views are too entrenched, and he is not going to be swayed by logic.

Claiming that there are no biological differences between men and women is crazy. If that is the case, why have the golf, cricket and fencing sporting bodies, following a lengthy consultation from scientists and medical experts, all recently announced that transwoman will be banned from elite competition in the women's category. I suppose he thinks they're bigoted too.

"lots of scientists and doctors would disagree that there is a biological difference between men and women"

Literally couldn't even name one, let alone lots. Sources (other than Dr YouTube)?

'I'm not anti trans rights, I just don't want them at the expense of women's rights and safe spaces, which are there for a good reason'

Exactly. ALL people should be protected from violence, harassment or discrimination. The problem is that 'trans rights' seems to mean a certain group of people demanding all the things they want all of the time, and screaming about hate and phobia when they don't get them

I had a similar situation with old friends of mine - two friends were very pro trans and myself and another (funnily were the ones with children- wonder if that affects our viewpoint?) believe that women and children should have their spaces protected.
I have no issue with men dressing as women in public spaces- you do you so to speak- but don't deny scientific reality and do 2+2=5. Or bring it into protected spaces.
I don't think I will end up seeing those old friends again as they are so far detached from reality.

“It's hard that the issue is so divisive and polarised :(”

It’s devastating, OP. You absolutely have my solidarity. I have experienced similar from a dearly loved family member and it’s incredibly painful. My family member is female, so it’s not misogyny from her, I don’t think. I think it’s being close to people who have transitioned, along with strong feelings from a remembered difficult childhood, where feeling very different and feeling the need to hide such a big part of yourself makes my relative ready to empathize with someone she has been persuaded is going through the same thing. I think I have seen som gay men doing the same, though their empathy is more often for other men.

One thing I will say is that, while I absolutely separate out “transactivism” from “people who are transitioning” (and especially the young) those looking at us do not perceive that divide. I criticize transactivists on social media and my relative sees it as criticizing trans people and has been so brainwashed by transactivism that she can’t actually perceive the fact that I don’t hate “those who are transitioning” while I absolutely do resent and am angry with “men who are forcing themselves into women’s spaces”.

But it is incredibly painful, not least because people who should know we are kind and accepting from our actions towards them for however many years, are so ready to believe that we have suddenly become hate-filled bigots.

I would have hoped that my relative would have known me well enough to cut me a bit of slack and actually ask and try to understand, but that is exactly what transactivism is designed to counter. They can’t be allowed to listen, because if they did, they would instantly see we had a point.

I hope that, some day, this will all fall away and we can all find ways back to those friends who are worth renewing our friendship with.

I asked a TRA gay friend this once and he said he would, because "transmen are men".
I said I'd really believe that he believed it when he had a female who identifies as a man as a boyfriend.
He hung up and we've never spoken since.
In hindsight he was a raving misogynist, I just hadn't seen it.

@ramenmonster being stupid here but if everyone was gay, the world population would die out! men would not become fathers and women would not become mothers. they will always need the opposite sex whether for natural sex or test tube/ivf etc

I had similar with an old friend ( gay male) although it was just before the General Election and he said the Women's Party were a bunch of bigots. I didn't know anything about them but looked up their beliefs - no men in women's spaces etc. I agreed with every one of the points it made. I know that friend has a Trans pal (M to F). So I decided to just let it lie for now and not challenge him, because I don't want to fall out with him, but I will if he asks me directly and he is prepared to listen. Sometimes you have to accept that people have different views.

It's IS gaslighting, OP.

Men, especially good men who would naturally never hurt anyone, find it incredibly uncomfortable when faced with the reality that the sex class they're part of is so problematic that women fantasise about men having a curfew, just so we can go for a bloody walk after dark.

It's painful. It distresses my DH a great deal. He feels powerless to change it, so sometimes, tells me I'm being over-cautious, that I'm over-reacting, etc.

Telling you you're imagining things means he doesn't have to look ugly masculinity and ugly male sexual behaviour in the face.

I think the problem with men, when trying to explain the gender critical position, is that you have to highlight how men can be a problem for women. That's why transwomen can be a problem for women.

It really gets their backs up -
What do you mean? Men, like my perfect self, you don't trust people like me in your private space? Really why not?

And you have to go right back to the basics with them and tie yourself in painful knots "yes if you have a penis you're, y'know - different to us not that you personally are a threat in anyway you know I love you and I have sons of my own and etc etc but even still, y'know... TW are different to women in the same way men are...

It's misogyny in spades. "Why should women need spaces away from men? I just can't possibly comprehend?"

I'd give him a wide birth for the time being.

He's just a common misogynist, OP. None of it affects him, he doesn't give a crap about the female half of the species and I'd go as far as to say he likely doesn't see females as fully human, what with our holes not appealing to him.
It's quite predictable.