big argument with old friend

I think at the end of the day, this is what it's all about. I remember roughly a decade ago the "Schroedinger's Rapist" meme was going around in feminist and progressive circles: the idea that women had no way of knowing which men might attack/rape them. It was like a proto "We choose the bear." And men were just as upset about it and the idea women might finally be able to address the issue of always having to be on guard around men from a position of power. Not long after that, and maybe it was just a coincidence, the same people I saw promoting Schroedinger's Rapist had turned around and started talking about "trans women are women."

The potential partner here doesn't need to be a trans man - if this friend disagrees that there is a biological difference between men and women, he'd be happy to sleep with women, yes?

Men don't like to see the ugly in male behaviour, and like it even less when we finally see it in theirs.

I'm actually feeling angrier now about how he's prepared to endanger women's lives (happy to have biological males in women's sports etc!) and gives no shits about it, the sheer misogyny. I realise he is completely unaware of his own misogyny though.

This is how I feel about the old friend I've distanced myself from. He thinks he's being 'kind' but has no idea how much letting men into women's spaces negatively impacts women. The sneering look of disdain on his face when we discussed it was ugly to see. I felt like the scales had dropped from my eyes and that through all the decades we'd known each other I'd never seen the real him. It was a horrible shock but I know I can never trust him again.

I'm glad you feel better about what was an unhappy situation, ramenmonster.

I'm glad you got a lot of sensible, clear, well-informed responses to your friend's opinions - and one absolutely brilliant rant containing 37 'fucks'
I'm glad you've seen that being pro-women and anti-misogyny is not being transphobic.
I'm still sorry about you losing a friend who you thought was OK, though, and I hope you find new more supportive ones soon.

I came across a PHSE textbook with this scenario. I wasn't (mercifully) doing the topic but my immediate question was, if everyone is gay how come they all have children? The point of the lesson was that being homosexual is normal and ok, but with it being heterosexual which was the minority group who had problems. I just thought wtaf?

I definitely think having children is often a turning point. I used to be prepared to tell lies to myself about what I believed, in order to minimise exposure to criticism from others.

But as soon as my children were old enough that I needed to explain things to them, I found I couldn’t carry on that way — I couldn’t teach them things I knew were untrue. My instinct to be authentic with them was stronger.

Been following this thread and am reassured by the many saying they can't be friends with those who would give women's rights away to men. Glad you're here.

Remember this? I loved this piece for the author's righteous fury and refusal to bow down to the dogma. She also uses the word 'fuck' 37 times.

4w.pub/a-message-to-those-recently-opining/

A nice counter to the sex-is-a-complicated-spectrum nonsense, but unfortunately not much help with basic misogyny.

Hamweiler, actually footage.

I mean, my hamster said she identifies as a rottweiler so it must be true, after all silly things like science and genetics don't matter!!!

So if this chap was going to breed dogs/cows/sheep/cats/another mammal would he be dumb enough to try to breed two females (or two males) and then be surprised that no offspring were forthcoming?

my patience for this fucking nonsense , not great to start with, is wearing thinner by the day. Personally I cannot be friends with complete fucking nutters-every single interaction is fatally tainted by them being utterly barking.

Brilliant - thank you.

OP, in the link above, the post: ILikeDungs · 22/10/2023 10:53

It's just so good - you may want to share it with your confused friend.

The only live link I can find is private, but it's copied here about halfway down, posted 10:53 by ILikeDungs (thank you!)

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4925488-counteracting-accusations-of-bigotry

In case that thread gets targetted and pulled some day I've archived it: https://archive.ph/IwDNU

The argument is only polarised, @ramenmonster , because of misogynistic reality-deniers like him.

What I don’t understand is that if there was no biological difference aren’t the reasons to have the 2 categories really backwards and the kind of thing these supporters would normally be against? Socially constructing two categories where one is disadvantaged isn’t progressive is it, if that was the case.

Can someone post that fabulous guy-lies-on-train-tracks-while-rescuer-delays-help-because-of-laws-of-motion sex-denialist analogy? If you've read it, you'll know the one I mean.

I have it in 7 clumsy screenshots, which I'm sure the OP doesn't want, but a single doc/link to this is the perfect answer to this guy and all like him - it beats him at his own game, bro-to-bro, leaving no room for comeback that I can see.

I think it's the most effective riposte to this silliness I've read anywhere, not least because it permits the most pedantic sex-denialist to hold on to his reassuring conviction of intellectual superiority... while exposing this as utterly irrelevant, immoral and fundamentally absurd regardless. It's pretty powerful.

told me lots of scientists and doctors would disagree that there is a biological difference between men and women

the second someone says this it shows them for the utter fucking idiot they are

i have patience with some of the arguments and i am willing to liston but when ihear this i know there is no point in continuing

This is the "gotcha" we can always challenge gay men with.

The struggle they are going through such as being relentlessly promoted in each and every outlet more than one inch socially left of Das Reich?

Oh, to be so oppressed.

I do think there are some men who wouldn't bother with women at all if it weren't for wanting sex with them. As your friend is gay he doesn't have that issue so it's far easier for him to take the men's side on everything. For him, if other men say they're women that's good enough for him. It's sad because it's ruined your friendship but at least now you see him as he is Op.

Even if a man is genuinely suffering with gender dysphoria/dymorphia (putting aside the impossibility of distinguishing them from fetishists). Women are under no obligation to 'be kind'. Especially at the cost to our rights, safety, dignity and mental health.