big argument with old friend

You mean any man's opinion is more informed than a woman? In this case this particular man is talking utter nonsense. I someone told me there was no difference between a man and a woman in the context of sex/biology I would think them both ignorant and ill-informed - oh, and bloody stupid.

I’ve read your post a couple of times, and I still can’t seem to get my head around what you are trying to say here.

Mr Menno is extremely vocal in his support of women's rights.

Too late to edit my last post, but I should have included Andrew Doyle.

There are gay men who absolutely do 'get it' and are very strong voices. I immediately thought of Dennis Kavanagh (Gay Men's Network).

I think this comment might have been misunderstood. It's just that the L and G have been stuck together historically to create solidarity for the homosexual movement. However, they have very different interests and needs as much as women and men do. so it's the realisation that's the shock as opposed to not liking gay men. That's what I understood from that sentence.

My experience isn't that gay men aren't allies. It's that it doesn't even occur to them. I'm not going to blame them for that, they're busy checking their own backs are protected. When I actually speak with them about it, my friends do really get it, they understand the issues. They just don't factor into their lives the way they do ours.

What a ridiculous generalisation to make. Some get it, some don't, some have plenty to sat, some keep quiet. Just like anyone else.

Poster should have said “most”. It really is most though.

I wasn't saying the argument was an analogy to or literally the same as what he told her. I was more trying to say that it would be something many gay people would find offensive and would not consider forgiving someone and continuing a friendship over. It's not a perfect analogy because there isn't one here short of, I guess, saying Middle Eastern Muslim extremists have every right to murder gay people?

Yes your post confirms that most violence on men is done by men. And most violence against women is also done by men. So no, the OP doesn’t have to listen to him dismiss her fears and dismiss the realities of biological sex.

It isn't as simple as misogyny in my view. An awful lot of things I disagree with in this movement are driven by women, and the most passionate advocates for their 'trans kids' seem to be mothers. I think we are fooling ourselves if we think 'the tide has turned'. The landscape does look really different from 2018 but we haven't exactly gone back to a previous place, we're somewhere new.

I think most gay men know what it's like to be afraid in public. Gay bashing hasn't gone away, and you know that a man doesn't have to hold his boyfriend's hand in the street to get attacked. Same for men dressed as women in public.

I don't think that women insisting that we actually exist as a sex class mean we should be blamed for violent attacks on gender nonconforming males, usually by men (but sometimes involving women and girls too - as when Brianna Ghey was attacked). But I'd be pretty pissed off as a gay man if I was informed by a straight woman that I had NO idea about male violence.

If you actually want to be friends with him, you don't have to change your views, but at some point you have to listen to each other. Assembling 'gotchas' for future encounters won't achieve anything.

Why did you ever think he had any clue about women’s issues anyway?
yes, he sounds extremely misogynistic, which from experience, many gay men are.

Sadly, I tend to find gay men to be completely inconsiderate of female issues ;(

Gay men are typically more misogynistic than straight men. Especially around trans issues. Strangely not gay women though (typically)

you should still tell him. Send him this thread. Don’t be silent. That what got us here. Don’t be afraid of losing a friend (who wants to be friend with someone who thinks you personally are worth less?)

just send this URL and be done.

"his opinion...as informed as hers", really? If someone told me that there was no biological difference between men and women I'd think they were too stupid to be my friend.

Is it really? He didn’t say women are against God and going to hell. It sounds to me more like his opinion simply as informed as hers, probably because he is a man.

So what does being gay mean to him? Is he attracted to female-bodied people, no matter their self-identification? What about if someone with breasts and fully intact female body and genitalia threw on a man’s suit and said she 100% felt like a man, therefore was a man - would he date her? Why not settle down with a female partner; after all there’s no difference! When he has sex with other males, does he worry about either of them getting pregnant? Why did previous generations fight for gay rights? Misogynistic men like him have certainly sold out women, straight, B or L.

From what the OP said in her first post, this goes beyond a polite disagreement. I would think it would be as though she'd told him that being gay was against God and he was going to Hell.

Do good friends have to agree on everything all the time? If he truly is a great old friend I doubt he’s coming at it from a misogynist angle or you’d have spotted that before surely? Aren’t these kinds of conversations between friends way more useful than people sitting in their echo chambers ?

I’m not going to debate with you about the reality of biological sex, for the same reason I wouldn’t stand on the train platform debating the finer points of physics while the man on the tracks is ground into bits. Not because your position is unassailable. Because even bringing it up makes you an asshole.

I like that sentence the best. But brilliant article.

Perhaps if I share that article with an old friend it may make her rethink her new position on ‘trans kids’.