Caitlin Moran - no more sold out gigs?

There are a fair few “GC” writers at TheTimes - Janice of course, Sarah Ditum. Hadley Freeman and Kathleen Stock have both lost work previously due to expressing their views. Men like Alex Massie and Iain McaWhirter also regularly write very powerful pieces, yet the writer who is famous for writing a book on how to be a woman won’t offer an opinion.
I also imagine that CM is paid much more than these others - surely that must cause resentment?
I never read her stuff, on principle, and never will.

@GiveMeSpanakopita I'm afraid I think that's exactly what she is -but then again I think for many feminism can mean what you want it to mean -
I certainly think she is probably conflicted here- and hence why she has sat on the fence- her head probably thinks the feminist angle of 'protect and support women' - her livelihood and personal profile head probably thinks don't piss off the 'anything goes Im a very cool liberal person ' crowd.

I'm a cynic I'm afraid on such things- For many ethics and morals and taking the high ground go on the back burner if you have a livelihood to factor in- and she will be the high earner in that home I'm pretty sure.

Thing is with Caitlin and many others who played on the 'look how funky and Camden we are' ( and I lived around there mid 90s) is they are desparate in middle age still to be relevant and funky and hip and therefore don't always I feel come out with what they think in reality

Hmm. I think this depends on what Caitlin Moran thinks the purpose of Caitlin Moran is. She describes herself as a feminist. Therefore she should engage publicaly with feminist issues, especially those as important and existential as this issue.

If Caitlin Moran doesn't in fact believe that she is a feminist, but that the chief purpose of Caitlin Moran is to be 'funky and hip' and well-paid and stay in with the right bien pensant circles, then she's a fraud, and she should get off the public privilege platform she's squatting on top of and let some other, real feminists take her space in publishing and in her newspaper column.

@Lottapianos yep I feel this too - honestly she's a talented writer and clearly has a good brain - if I was her I would probably try and move over to the 'serious' analysing commentary stuff without the wackiness- think more Joan Bakewell or Jenny Murray 30 years ago! Lol

'So someone like Keyes, who is like, in the top 0000000.1% percentile, and HAS experienced hardship and addiction, has a responsibility. In my view. Not saying my view is right. Just what I think.'

No, you're right. I hear you

'Thing is with Caitlin and many others who played on the 'look how funky and Camden we are' ( and I lived around there mid 90s) is they are desparate in middle age still to be relevant and funky and hip'

I do find Caitlin utterly desperate. The gurning and face pulling, and the contrived wackiness. It's tiring. She seems so uncomfortable in her own skin. I have enjoyed some of her writing but I can't stand her in interview

I imagine that 90% of Caitlin's fans (or perhaps ex fans) are middle age and older women, i.e. the main demographic of gender critics.

TBF, I do think CM is hugely talented as a writer. Her metaphors are brilliant. However, I won't buy her books/ see her show until she acknowledges her sisters in the trenches.

I don’t know if this is it- I feel there are huge chunks of the population who self identify as feminist but never give this topic a single thought beyond ‘jk Rowling has really disappointed with that nasty stuff she said, don’t know what exactly’. So not sure there would be a Caitlin Moran backlash. I think it’s more likely she’s not offering anything new or interesting really.

I think there's an assumption amongst certain types that you are right of centre if you actually think JKR has a point- personally I'm centre left and I stand totally with JKR on this issue- I'm absolutely fed up of gender issues and trans dominating agendas- that doesn't mean I think there should be negative prejudice of the trans community or they should be discriminated against job wise etc but nor do I want this topic taking over forums and political discourse rather than economy, jobs, health, housing etc!!

Thing is with Caitlin and many others who played on the 'look how funky and Camden we are' ( and I lived around there mid 90s) is they are desparate in middle age still to be relevant and funky and hip and therefore don't always I feel come out with what they think in reality - In a similar vein I remember reading an interview in a music mag a few years ago with the columnist/reviewer Mark Ellen - who was always up for the newest 'in' band of the time and very dismissive of the 'old dinosaurs' in a snooty 'look how cool I am' way - he actually admitted that he wrote this stuff and then used to go home to listen to Pink Floyd, Rush etc

She probably doesn't hold GC views. I've read all her books and, since she pretty much self-inserts/writes very true to her life experiences, you can clearly track the lower middle class apolitical - to - highly privileged wealthy luxury liberal beliefs pipeline of her world view.

And yet, I can understand why high profile successful women are terrified.

Right. But it comes down to whether you think privilege brings responsibility. I've been poor, vulnerable and a victim of DV and SA in my life, now I'm old and, after a LOT of effort, support and bad years, live what in my book is a privileged life (own small flat, feel safe, can buy whatever I fancy in Aldi without worrying the cost). I'm hyper aware that that puts me in the top five percentile of the experience of women in the rest of the world. That's how bad things are for women - that they mostly can't expect safety, equality and comfort as a given. So someone like Keyes, who is like, in the top 0000000.1% percentile, and HAS experienced hardship and addiction, has a responsibility. In my view. Not saying my view is right. Just what I think.

No point writing a comment as @GiveMeSpanakopita has put it brilliantly.

I can understand anyone's reluctance to speak out on the issue, but this is her bread and butter topic!!! It's a special kind of cowardice which comes from being comfortable in the London bubble.

Alex James appears to be sweet but very dull, so it's possible.

But I'd suspect it's a combo of him being uninteresting and CM's schtick being tired, these days.

'Nope, I don't give any of them a pass. If you explicitly trade on your 'womanhood' to bolster your public status and profession (as Keyes also does since she explores in her novels feminist issues such as abortion access and DV) then you have a responsibility to educate yourself about what women less privileged than you are going through, and to speak accordingly.'

I absolutely hear you, and I do agree. And yet, I can understand why high profile successful women are terrified. If Marian Keyes were to share any gender critical views (I have no idea if she has any), her career would probably be screwed and she would get no end of horrible abuse. She had a lovely life and a much loved public persona, and I can understand why she would want to protect both. And yet, there's the small matter of The Truth, and standing up for other women

Nope, I don't give any of them a pass. If you explicitly trade on your 'womanhood' to bolster your public status and profession (as Keyes also does since she explores in her novels feminist issues such as abortion access and DV) then you have a responsibility to educate yourself about what women less privileged than you are going through, and to speak accordingly.

Keyes' novels are fairly popular in women's prison libraries (nowhere near as popular as Martina Cole but still). She needs to not remain deliberately in blissful ignorance just because she thinks her bank account depends on it.

It’s the fact that she pretends to say it like it is and then doesn’t that is so harmful. I can almost give people like Marian Keyes a free pass because she is evidently consumed with anxiety, but Caitlin pretends to be brave and isn’t. It’s much worse.

This. I’m no fan of Caitlin but I wonder if it’s that her usual audience aren’t interested in Alex James? If it was the same response to say her with eg Jess Phillips or a female pop star then that would be interesting.

'In which case my moment of snap was possibly when she tweeted one night about being afraid to walk home alone and this was a woman thing, because y' know, wombs.
Then posted next day cringing and fawning because not all women have wombs especially the penisy kind but we're all women (maybe especially the penisy kind) and she'd Do Better in future'

Oh yes, that was definitely Caitlin! Also tried to excuse herself by saying that she was 'on the blob' at the time so feeling 'particularly womby'. I think she was 46 years old at the time. Good god

I have no idea who she is so would not be interested in going to one of her gigs

Ah, I think you're right.

In which case my moment of snap was possibly when she tweeted one night about being afraid to walk home alone and this was a woman thing, because y' know, wombs.

Then posted next day cringing and fawning because not all women have wombs especially the penisy kind but we're all women (maybe especially the penisy kind) and she'd Do Better in future.

Eyes rolling like a pinball machine on jackpot.

'Moran's privileged, complacent brand of liberal feminism is so last decade. Times have changed, things for women have gotten worse. Give me the righteous rage and incisive perspicuity of Bindel, Stock and Joyce. I have no time for Caitlin 'oooh I'm mad me, a strong woman look I wear Doc Martens n everything' Moran.'

Brilliantly put. Listening to Helen Joyce gives me life. I actually love her. Caitlin is just an irritation these days. There was some great stuff in 'How To Be A Woman' but sadly she's become a joke since then

'Then she responded to the redefinition of women by wittering on about the MAN IN HER MENOPAUSE GROUP's nifty way with accessories. Not bothered to read a word of hers since.'

I think this was Ayesha Hazarika, not Caitlin. But yes - SHAMEFUL

Exactly this. I loved How To Be A Woman and I even went to see her live - but have to admit it was in my only-lefty-approved-opinions-here-thanks days and before I realised her 'outspokenness' only applied to views pre-approved by the MC groupthink.

Then she responded to the redefinition of women by wittering on about the MAN IN HER MENOPAUSE GROUP's nifty way with accessories. Not bothered to read a word of hers since.

She's the epitome of the hyper privileged luxury beliefs of the sort that enable women to pretend that TWAW and TW aren't really a threat.

Moran's privileged, complacent brand of liberal feminism is so last decade. Times have changed, things for women have gotten worse. Give me the righteous rage and incisive perspicuity of Bindel, Stock and Joyce. I have no time for Caitlin 'oooh I'm mad me, a strong woman look I wear Doc Martens n everything' Moran.

Or any of her ilk. Emma Watson and Kirsty Allsopp and everyone else who is too afraid of losing their lifelong ticket to the North London dinner party circuit to actually speak up for vulnerable women.

ALL HAIL JKR.

India Knight used to be on here back in the day. That's when I first started mumsnet when she brought out a book on low-carb with her friend. They lost five stone each but I never knew whether they kept it off. I did get the impression they came on here to drum up an audience but do remember quite a lot of criticism here because her book wasn't exactly for the average woman, put it that way. There's not a lot of call for canapés in a lot of houses on a school night!

When the Times went behind a paywall (£8.66 pm!) she was the main reason I subscribed. I also loved India Knight.
Now I only keep it because of Janice Turner.

I don't bother with her articles on The Times either. She's a really flat people-pleaser. No guts to stand up for women's rights

Well it’s a double whammy of a tour on ‘what about men’ from a former champion of women who has completely sat out the gender debate. Not even taken a side but sat it out entirely. So you stop being relevant. I’m a Times subscriber and used to be an avid reader but haven’t made any effort to read her stuff in years now and I wonder what her readership stats are like - with digital Times HQ would know what her page hits are like. I can understand looking at what’s happened to Kathleen Stock etc that you wouldn’t want to get involved - the fear is real - but I thought CM was made of stronger stuff. Perhaps she has a trans child and it’s too awkward, that’s my generous view.