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Original poster

Intersex

314 replies

Tootsurly · 03/12/2024 18:52

Bit of a thought experiment, plus curious as to how much people know about intersex conditions / DSDs.

This is slightly Black Mirror, although not totally beyond the realms of possibility. If there ever came a point where anything specifically related to being male or female required a DNA test to determine your sex before participating, what would happen to intersex people whose chromosomes didn't match their outward appearance (i.e. genotype and phenotype don't match)?

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SnakesAndArrows · 03/12/2024 20:56

Waitwhat23 · 03/12/2024 20:33

Argh!, thanks for the reminder - Dr Emma Hamilton

Dr Emma Hilton.

GCITC · 03/12/2024 20:50

Wonderi · 03/12/2024 20:44

I worked with someone in a prison who was intersex.

They were in a male prison but more recently have been more accepting of their female side and started using female pronouns.

I can’t remember their chromosomes but I think it was XXY and they were literally half male and half female.

They are physically very male but the facial features are very female.

I obviously don’t know what genitalia they had but I read up that micro penis’ and oversized labia are signs of being intersex.

They literally weren't. Mammalian species aren't hermaphroditic.

Original poster
Tootsurly · 03/12/2024 20:46

BearOnABlanket · 03/12/2024 20:27

And as Helen Joyce says, the comparison with red heads is ridiculous as it isn't consistent across the globe (whereas presumably the incidence of DSDs broadly is).

No, it's not consistent across the globe - in populations with higher consanguineous marriage it's much more common.

Presumably so are a lot of other genetic mutations in those communities?

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Wonderi · 03/12/2024 20:44

I worked with someone in a prison who was intersex.

They were in a male prison but more recently have been more accepting of their female side and started using female pronouns.

I can’t remember their chromosomes but I think it was XXY and they were literally half male and half female.

They are physically very male but the facial features are very female.

I obviously don’t know what genitalia they had but I read up that micro penis’ and oversized labia are signs of being intersex.

Waitwhat23 · 03/12/2024 20:44

I don't think she studies the development of beetles generally - I think she is just fond of beetles. She's not an entomologist.

Original poster
Tootsurly · 03/12/2024 20:42

PowerTulle · 03/12/2024 20:26

Isn’t Intersex an outdated term nowadays? It’s mostly been rejected by all but the LGBTQI+ lobbyists who co-opted this term to push gender woo.

You are male or female, with a difference in development affecting sex characteristics. Some of the specific conditions are directly attributed to one sex only. For instance the DSD affecting males with internal testes.

Well I don't know if it's been "reclaimed" but its usage is prevalent amongst groups of people with DSDs.

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theilltemperedqueenofspacetime · 03/12/2024 20:42

Garlicwest · 03/12/2024 19:43

I have a dystopian fantasy of my own that raises this question 😂 It involves a club/hotel type establishment for women. Should the genderist agenda have succeeded, membership requires a cheek swab or blood test on application. I chewed over quite a few issues with this.

Unsurprisingly to anyone but myself, I settled on the very same approach I currently take in life. XY people with Swyer Syndrome can join, if they're keen enough to undergo my club's testing. No other XY people may, no matter how androgen insensitive they are or how they think they identify.

XX people with de la Chapelle syndrome may not join because they're 'effectively' men (as the Swyer's people 'are' women). So-called trans men may not because, although they're women, they're trying to abandon their female sex so don't belong in my club.

I never use the term intersex; there are no sexes between or beyond female and male. And I wish my club was real!

What is your rationale for letting in people with Swyer Syndrome and not people with CAIS? They are both XY, but neither goes through male puberty. The former have Müllerian structures but no ovaries, and need exogenous œstrogen to mature. The latter have internal Wolffian structures that do not produce spermatozoa, and go through female puberty spontaneously (by T conversion) resulting in a normal female body and genitals. Both are infertile. Are you distinguishing purely on gestational capability?

elozabet · 03/12/2024 20:40

I have seen a post where she explained her username but no, she doesn't study beetles.

Studies genetic disease. You can find her details online.

Original poster
Tootsurly · 03/12/2024 20:36

Waitwhat23 · 03/12/2024 20:33

Argh!, thanks for the reminder - Dr Emma Hamilton

I assume she doesn't just study the development of beetles...?

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Original poster
Tootsurly · 03/12/2024 20:35

GCITC · 03/12/2024 20:10

You'll find that many of us here have had to become knowledgeable in this area because those with DSD's have been used as a gotcha by those that have little understanding of the subject.

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What really concerns me (and pisses me off) is that the majority of intersex people I know are rabid TRAs. I don't think that does us any favours at all.

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Theunamedcat · 03/12/2024 20:34

Circumferences · 03/12/2024 20:16

I also self identify as intersex.

I agree that you either have a male DSD or a female DSD and blood testing will reveal these conditions.

I don't think it's fair to allow females with a DSD to participate in women's sports where there is a sporting advantage. No males with a DSD should be allowed because they're male.

You self identify yourself as having a medical condition? How does that even work?

Waitwhat23 · 03/12/2024 20:33

Argh!, thanks for the reminder - Dr Emma Hamilton

Original poster
Tootsurly · 03/12/2024 20:33

Waitwhat23 · 03/12/2024 20:32

Fond of Beetles is the Twitter username of Emma Hamilton, a developmental biologist.

Ah! Thank you.

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Waitwhat23 · 03/12/2024 20:32

Fond of Beetles is the Twitter username of Emma Hamilton, a developmental biologist.

elozabet · 03/12/2024 20:32

Yes sorry, fondofbeetles is her name on Twitter. Dr Emma Hilton. She's a development biologists and her research has been instrumental in changing policies for sports regarding males in female sports. She's worth a follow on Twitter as she's very knowledgeable.

titchy · 03/12/2024 20:28

I suppose that I would be put in the same category as transwomen.

Of course you wouldn't. TW don't have any ambiguity about their sex. They're male. They don't have DSDs.

BearOnABlanket · 03/12/2024 20:27

And as Helen Joyce says, the comparison with red heads is ridiculous as it isn't consistent across the globe (whereas presumably the incidence of DSDs broadly is).

No, it's not consistent across the globe - in populations with higher consanguineous marriage it's much more common.

dementedpixie · 03/12/2024 20:26

Fondofbeetles can be found on X i think

Moonbark · 03/12/2024 20:26

Angrymum22 · 03/12/2024 20:04

It is possible to have chimerism where you have absorbed a twin and their genes can be detected. Also mosaicism can cause anomies in genetic testing. This can also happen after having children.
Some individuals can have mosaic downed syndrome which is only detectable genetically and the individual shows no physical signs.
Genetics is not clear cut.

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Yes, that is my point. I hold three degrees in genetics.

PowerTulle · 03/12/2024 20:26

Isn’t Intersex an outdated term nowadays? It’s mostly been rejected by all but the LGBTQI+ lobbyists who co-opted this term to push gender woo.

You are male or female, with a difference in development affecting sex characteristics. Some of the specific conditions are directly attributed to one sex only. For instance the DSD affecting males with internal testes.

Original poster
Tootsurly · 03/12/2024 20:23

elozabet · 03/12/2024 20:09

I can understand your fear but from what in see from those campaigning in the area of sports, they have an extremely good understanding of the difference (fondofbeetles for example).

The general public generally don't have much of a clue and this site is most definitely not reflective of the general public, so asking your question on here will give you a biased answer.

I take it fondofbeetles is someone's username?

I guess it's not, but it's the nearest I could think of!

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Angrymum22 · 03/12/2024 20:22

Tootsurly · 03/12/2024 20:18

Maybe not if they are someone who has the intelligence to make that comparison in as clear as way as you have described it. But it definitely happens.

For what it's worth, I don't like being part of LGBT at all as a DSD is a medical condition, not a sexuality or an identity.

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And this is the essence of the ongoing argument. Sexual preference has nothing to do with your gender, something that trans communities struggle with.

elozabet · 03/12/2024 20:21

I've never understood why a medical condition was in with the rest of the alphabet.

Original poster
Tootsurly · 03/12/2024 20:21

Circumferences · 03/12/2024 20:16

I also self identify as intersex.

I agree that you either have a male DSD or a female DSD and blood testing will reveal these conditions.

I don't think it's fair to allow females with a DSD to participate in women's sports where there is a sporting advantage. No males with a DSD should be allowed because they're male.

How do you self identify?

Intersex isn't really an identity, it's a congenital condition (although to be fair some intersex people do rather make it their entire identity).

Which variation do you self identify as having?

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Original poster
Tootsurly · 03/12/2024 20:19

SpeculativeHoumous · 03/12/2024 20:11

I don't see why it's fascinating it's a disorder like many other disorders

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I suppose it is fascinating if biology fascinates you, yes.

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