Intersex

Id hazard a guess that the majority of them also do not have a DSD, but just self identify as having one.

Hilton

In what way is he female?

Except they should still be checked for male diseases. Generally they discover their chromosomes at puberty and it should be handled sensitively. If I met the OP I would refer to her as she and her and describe her as a woman. Indeed I would probably not know that she has a DSD unless she told me. I'm not saying that I would start referring to her as a man or him once I knew.

I have a friend who is a trans-identifying woman. I only knew him as a man until he told me that he was trans. Though once I knew, it was obvious. I don't refer to him as she or her even though he is female because it's not polite. But I would very much encourage him to be checked for female cancers etc.

My point is that we have to use language carefully in the right context. I would refer to my trans friend as a woman and use female pronouns if I didn't know him as a friend, but I generally refer to trans-identifying people by their natal sex pronouns.

Good question - and remember this is a personal daydream, I'm not setting national policy for anything!

Because it seems to me that CAIS is not always complete. I don't know how many of the people designated CAIS but clearly showing some masculine development have lied about it or been lied to, neither do I know how easy it is to test for levels of insensitivity. (I don't need to know.)

There's also the fact that women are not androgen insensitive. I have an online friend with CAIS; she says she's more 'feminine' than XX women in certain ways, and I believe her. It does mark her out from genetic women, though, because we have experiences related to the fluctuations & variations of natural testosterone in our bodies.

Swyer Syndrome's a more straightforward case in my view. Many women here would disagree with me on that. I understand why.

~ I'm aware I've used female pronouns for my CAIS acquaintance. Like most people, I use the words that feel right to me in personal situations. I would not do this in detached discussion because words do have meanings!

It’s pretty offensive to use an outdated term that used to indicate that a person was ‘between’ male and female. And yes, the sex of a person is entirely based on their chromosomes. Flat chested women are not male, men with moobs are not female. Men in dresses are not female. Men who are only 5 ft tall are not female…

I agree, and don't see how they can ever be men, because they are incapable of going through male puberty.

A person would only know they had a DSD if they had been tested for it either very soon. After birth or, as more often happens, at the expected time of puberty. Once tested, they would then know what sex they are. Male or female. Why would they need and exemption card?

Socially I would refer to them as women and girls but they are men and boys.

I would say a sentence like this must be very upsetting and confusing to some people with particular XY DSDs who have identified as women and girls their whole life and only go on to discover they are genetically male when they encounter issues at puberty or with infertility.

on the other hand, there are many people who regard themselves as having an intersex variation, and do not like being described as having a DSD

She is not fond of beetles. See my previous post.

It's a phrase used by someone who either accompanied Darwin or about Darwin himself. He was fond of beetles.

I don't have particularly strong feelings about the term "intersex", although I do agree there's really no such thing. (I have much stronger feelings about its inclusion in the gender identity alphabet soup.)

Sounds like a sensible position to take. Agreeing there's no such thing is the important bit. When facts get lost, that's where it goes wrong.

My TERF views don't tend to go down terribly well and Helen Joyce is seen as the devil incarnate or worse.

I can imagine!

Yes, I have SS. It's shitty, but perhaps not so bad as some of the other variations.

I can't imagine Swyer is easy.

I would agree with PPs that there are a few circles on this thread. However, as you say, you're not an expert in DSDs.

Dr Emma Hilton is a great person to follow on the whole subject of DSDs. She did a great job deconstructing the topic during the Olympics. The main focus was 5-ARD, because of the prevalence of males with this DSD in women's sport, but she also covered Swyer, Turner's, CAIS, PAIS and more. Most of it unfolded on X and lots of us were asking questions. Lots of it got pulled in to MN threads.

Foetuses are either female or male depending on whether the sperm that fertilised the egg had an X or Y chromosome. X is female, making XX with the egg, Y is male, making XY with the egg.

The sperm and egg are gametes and there are only two gametes.

The phenotype that produces the smaller gamete, the sperm, is male and the phenotype that produces the larger gamete, the egg, is female. There are only two sexes male and female.

Thus there are only two systems or pathways that can be followed.

This doesn't stop there being diversity at the foetal level. Within male and female there is wide variation of anatomy, physiology and behaviour. Some of the variation results in additional chromosomes which are disorders or differences of sexually development.

One example which may help explain some of the confusion:
There are male humans with XY chromosomes who are partially or completely insensitive to testosterone. They will look like girls and develop like girls but often find out they are boys when they don't have periods, they have short vaginas or vaginas that end in no cervix and have no uterus. This is very distressing. Socially I would refer to them as women and girls but they are men and boys.

I won't go into any further detail here but check out @FondOfBeetles on X/Twitter for detailed discussions about DSDs.

A lot of people with DSDs object to being included in the alphabet salad. Stonewall recently put this on their website.
'Stonewall works with intersex groups to provide its partners and stakeholders information and evidence about areas of disadvantage experienced by intersex people but does not, after discussions with members of the intersex community, include intersex issues as part of its current remit at this stage.'

I have. Sounds like you were trying to be clever and catch people out but then realised we're all quite knowledgeable from the replies posted and ever since you've been talking yourself round in circles.

Time to wheel out the Ainsworth paper!

https://www.nature.com/articles/518288a

Lots of people hate it because it gets misused by TRAs, particularly the last sentence.

But that sentence is only about people with DSDs, whose sense of their gender can usefully inform their selection of treatment options. It's irrelevant for everyone else, including 'trans' people.

PS I think OP's question could be answered by reference to whether someone has gone through male puberty or not, because that's the source of the problems of aggression, fairness, safety etc. So, do karyotype testing then apply exemptions on a case by case basis?

Did you live under a rock during the olympics?

Sorry, tired and making mistakes!

It’s a quotation from JBS Haldane, who was a geneticist, like Dr Hilton.

Hi OP, I'll admit I completely misunderstood your reason for posting initially.

There have been people who come to this board with gotchas/provocative posts where they conflate DSDs with gender identity.

I've now RTFT and can see that this is something you've spotted too and are equally as annoyed by it but for very different, and very personal, reasons.

It's interesting that you use the term intersex. I avoid doing that because there's no such thing as "between the sexes".

Re your own DSD, do you have Swyer?