Intersex

Your cheek swab may not also be a true reflection of the genetics that exist in all tissues, but is good at picking up mosaicism, so you’ll find individuals who have a mixed genotype, some cells with XY and some with XX, some maybe with XO too (single X chromosome). All of those genotypes can exist within the cells of a single individual and may not have much of a phenotypic effect depending on the level of mosaicism and in what tissues.

Sex chromosome loss is also normal as we age, so it’s normal for woman over 30 to have some cells with only one X chromosome and in older males to lose the Y. (https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC1801353/)

You want to be careful with those hypothetical cheek swabs and scenarios ;)

Are you posting under a different user name on aibu?

"I was only joking" says Anne Fausto Sterling

Carrie Hull vis-a-vis Fausto Sterling.

Should clarify, when I say develop as females I don't mean develop ovaries etc, I mean they will look female growing up and won't look like men, so they may be totally unaware that they have male chromosomes and internal testes etc.

Presumably you're specifically thinking of 46 XY 5-ARD, which is the DSD that is causing all the contention in women's boxing, running and football (plus no doubt other sports).

This is a male only DSD that is most likely going to be impossible to spot at birth. As a result of this DSD, the scrotum and penis won't form until puberty. For some, their testicles will remain internal. Because of the order in which reporoductive organs form in development, the external genitalia will look indistinguishable from female genitalia until puberty, even though all the internal male plumbing is there.

This DSD must be devastating for those who have it. Thankfully it's rare. Although there are pockets of the world where it is more prevalent (though still rare overall), such as here where it is "common" enough to be given the name guevedoces, which means "penis at 12":

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-34290981

So what's likely to happen in pretty much every case is that a boy with this DSD will initially believe himself to be a girl. Then during puberty he'll discover his sex.

Unfortunately for society, sometimes males with this DSD will fly under the radar in sport and will compete on the female passports/birth certificate that they were issued when it was understandably assumed that they were girls.

I should imagine most boys with this condition would want to be tested when they started to experience the confusion and distress of unexpected male puberty at about age 13. Some may end up being coerced into women's sports. Some may see the opportunity of women's sports all by themselves without the coercion.

Regardless, the dystopian situation where anything that is related to being male or female requires genetic testing won't happen.

If you're really curious about how much people on this board know about DSDs, it's worth reading the boxing threads from the summer. Clue: the answer is lots.

I'm not going to join in with the thought experiment any more though.

Well that’s settled in law already, thanks to a transwoman.

Sex is chromosomes, gonads, genitals and gametes.

so someone with say, 5ARD has XY chromosomes, internal testes, ambiguous genitalia and either produces sperm or nothing at all, depending on the severity of the disorder.

Ok nothing would happen to then

I'm quite knowledgeable on this topic (bio degree, have taught it for many years and long before it became a hot topic).
I would agree with Prof Winston (obviously - be a fool not to agree).

There are some conditions that affect those with XY which will mean they will develop as females. Historically they only really found out when they investigated why their periods didn't start. They would look completely female.

I suppose if they brought in genetic testing they would identify their actual condition. I can't remember which sport said only those who haven't been through male puberty could compete in female sports. This would include DSD's like Swyer's syndrome and CAIS but exclude DSD's such a alpha 5 reductase (condition Imane Khelif/caster semenya) as they go through male puberty.

You've obviously got some reading to do about DSDs, but to answer your original post, a person whose DNA/ Chromosomes/ whatever are known will have to live with it the same as everyone else.

If somebody's phenotype doesn't appear like their karyotype would suggest, this doesn't prevent them from behaving in a particular way, or dressing a particular way.

The 1.7% claim ('as common as redheads') made by Fausto - Sterling has been utterly discredited.

Verity, the PCOS charity, had to make a public statement to clarify that PCOS is not an 'intersex' condition.

I have a dystopian fantasy of my own that raises this question 😂 It involves a club/hotel type establishment for women. Should the genderist agenda have succeeded, membership requires a cheek swab or blood test on application. I chewed over quite a few issues with this.

Unsurprisingly to anyone but myself, I settled on the very same approach I currently take in life. XY people with Swyer Syndrome can join, if they're keen enough to undergo my club's testing. No other XY people may, no matter how androgen insensitive they are or how they think they identify.

XX people with de la Chapelle syndrome may not join because they're 'effectively' men (as the Swyer's people 'are' women). So-called trans men may not because, although they're women, they're trying to abandon their female sex so don't belong in my club.

I never use the term intersex; there are no sexes between or beyond female and male. And I wish my club was real!

The person you responded to didn't mention Swyers, so why would you assume they thought someone with Swyers would be a man?

It used to be believed that all foetuses began to develop along the female pathway. This was found to be an incorrect assumption. What was actually happening was that in the early stages of development, you can't tell the sex by looking at the foetus (however, they do have a sex).

'Intersex' is very old fashioned and I have been told (by someone with Kinefelters who I quote) that "it is similar to 'spastic'" in terms of being extremely insulting (to this person who is male and definitely not inbetween).

https://www.theparadoxinstitute.com/read/sex-development-charts

People with DSDs or VSDs have asked not to be used as a political football or shield.

I should think they feel the same way about being used as thought experiments for other groups. Good account of this within another thread:

TERFs are not the problem
www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5221125-terfs-are-not-the-problem?reply=140269669&utm_campaign=thread&utm_medium=share

In the vast majority of people it really isn't complicated!

It’s a completely unambiguous term, to most people?

I'm talking about everyday situations, like hospital wards, toilets, single-sex social events.

Well you haven't specified so difficult to follow your hypotheticals tbh.

I would imagine in your examples the current status quo would apply - so external genitalia giving the appearance of female, no male-type onset of puberty and thus the belief the person is female, they'd use women's loos.

Sports where testosterone levels and male puberty confer an advantage, then categorised as male regardless.

Is this supposed to be some sort of gotcha?

Is this one of those 'wide-eyed thought experimenters' where the naivety slowly becomes aha gotcha nasty wims?

Not that the gotcha ever actually is, but there's just something about the tone...

Yes, sex is entirely determined by chromosomes.

For the 99.9% of people who are XX or XY with no sex-chromosomal abnormalities this is straightforward.

For the remainder, the specific type of DSD determines whether they are male or female. There is one XY DSD - Swyer’s - that results in a phenotypical female, albeit without ovaries. Another - CAIS - results in a person who appears female but who has no uterus and has undeveloped testes.

I’d suggest that the national ID card in your fictional scenario of someone with Swyer’s or CAIS should indicate them to be female. Someone with 46 XY-ARD, however, is male, as they will undergo male puberty.