Intersex

Just read that you have SS. Sorry if I was rude.

You claim ignorance but you seem very didactic!

“From the bit of Intersex advocacy that’s visible online the majority of intersex-as-identity people seem to be XXY men and plain ol XY men with inner lady-feelings (MtF trans)”

Depressingly, there do seem to be an increasing number of transvestite grifters who, on realising women are starting to win the discussion about what a woman is, have moved from simply lying about being women to lying that they are intersex women.

These men are narcissists who will appropriate anything that gets them attention. There was even one of these men proudly displaying a TV program he’d been involved with about people with DSDs. They are truly sick.

OP, to answer your original question, I hope the scenario you describe would never, ever become reality. I can understand in women’s sports that chromosome testing might be a starting point, but even in sports, it should only be a starting point because the situation is complex, as we can see from this thread.

Thank you for "stepping out" into this thread and commenting. I have the utmost respect for you (and the OP) for doing so, given how personal all of this must undoubtedly feel. Your contributions have been really informative.

(Just to be explicit: I absolutely think these athletes with male puberty have no place in female sports, while I have full sympathy for their difficulties.)

This ⬆️

I find myself wondering how supportive current day ‘Intersex’ orgs are for those who are seeking solidarity with others with similar XY/female appearance conditions (whether that to bond over the shared psychological experience of an unanticipated diagnosis or to give/seek treatment/doctor recommendations).

That is a very good point and something I worry about. When I got diagnosed, and when I sought out the support group, there was no one asking me if I was "really a woman". We just got on with finding the best medical specialists, and helping each other feel less freakish and alone.

I think it must be very difficult to be a young person being diagnosed with a DSD nowadays, with all this open debate centering on gender issues. In my opinion the sports issue has been very damaging to people coming to grips with having one of these conditions.

(Just to be explicit: I absolutely think these athletes with male puberty have no place in female sports, while I have full sympathy for their difficulties.)

Interesting background info re: terminology, thanks!

I find myself wondering how supportive current day ‘Intersex’ orgs are for those who are seeking solidarity with others with similar XY/female appearance conditions (whether that to bond over the shared psychological experience of an unanticipated diagnosis or to give/seek treatment/doctor recommendations).

From the bit of Intersex advocacy that’s visible online the majority of intersex-as-identity people seem to be XXY men and plain ol XY men with inner lady-feelings (MtF trans) or FtM trans teens who are trying on an identity that makes them feel special/belong to an exclusive club (see also DID and Tourette’s self IDers)

The historic context of the terminology... when I started looking up books in the library the official term was "male pseudo-hermaphrodite" which freaked 16 yr old me out. For a long time families affected by these XY conditions congregated around the term AIS, even if that wasn't the specific condition, partly because of the less dehumanising term and also the work of the AISSG, first in the UK (where people used to come from all over the world for very emotional meetings) and then groups in the US, Aus, etc.

Then the Intersex Society of North America (ISNA) was founded (in the 90s I think?) and there was a lot of discussion of the term, but ISNA did a great job in supporting a lot of people with other conditions who did not identify with the mostly female-identified (sorry, I don't know what words to use here) nature of most of the membership of AISSG. I guess it tried to de-medicalize support and step away from thinking of 'conditions'. But critics of the term and particularly those who think medical support is a primary need coalesced around DSDs.

This.

Being blunt, I think believing in god is as ridiculous as believing that we all have a gender identity.

Being diplomatic, I think that believing in god makes as much sense as believing that we all have a gender identity.

I fully accept that plenty of people believe in either or both of these things and that they are likely to think I'm "wrong". I'm not going to argue with them about whether I'm right or they are. The world is a far more interesting place because we all believe different things to help us make sense of the meaning of life etc.

Just as I wouldn't try and stop someone being radicalised by religion by saying "why are you planning to [whatever action they were going to take] when there's no such thing as god?", I wouldn't tell someone who was thinking about making changes to their body to align it with their perceived gendered soul that "there's no such thing as gender identity".

Apologies OP for this derail. I'm also happy to leave it there. It's not about having the last word, just making sure I'm expressing myself as clearly as I can. I completely accept that some people have a different take on it all. My "neutral" approach reminded me of the way you're not impacted either way by the word "intersex" i.e. you're not offended by it nor are you defending it as the only way to describe DSDs. Personally I find it more effective to let differences in language use fly over my head and just concentrate instead on the substance of what's being said.

💐💐💐💪💪💪

For both you and @orkid

(Orkid, I disagree with you on 5-ARD - it's a male only DSD - but that doesn't stop me recognising how distressing it must be to have that condition).

This is such an interesting article/exploration.
Thanks for posting!

I love this part:

Authenticity is a morally suspect aim in any case, since it diverts concern away from others to oneself. A productive and virtuous life with love, friendship, and an appreciation of truth and beauty is authenticity enough. And that can be accomplished whether one lives in a social manner characteristic of one’s own sex, the other sex, or neither.

As far as I’m aware there is no evidence for Swyers being over represented in elite female sports (or present at all really, possibly due to the associated complications such as early onset osteoporosis).

It’s really 5ARD that’s the biggie in female sports, especially when it comes to athletes who appear to be male based on male-typical appearance ie things like limb length (reach is very important in boxing).

It was the TRAs and the TRA sympathisers (lazy copy and pasters) who used Swyers as a possible explanation for Khalif but anyone who has been following DSDs in sports from a GC perspective would start with 5ARD as the most likely, followed by PAIS/CAIS.

Unscrupulous coaches seek out these 5ARD boys-with-female-birth-certificates in poorer countries because they know they can beat female athletes. It’s like the East German doping scandal without the need for any dope.

The CAIS athlete over representation is unlikely to have been ‘gamed’ in the way that 5ARD is because CAIS kids aren’t identifiable without medical testing, whereas a ‘girl’ who becomes a ‘boy’ at puberty is observable in the community, no testing required (ie in some cultures 5ARD is known colloquially as ‘penis at 12’)

However, the over representation of CAIS in elite sports is not explained by circulating testosterone, so requires further research.

https://x.com/fondofbeetles/status/1070098298885890050?s=46&t=ibVI24cP7Ts3w2nqa22VXg

My comment is based on people with CAIS seemingly being over represented in the top levels of sport (but that is a) disputed and if it is so b) requires further research as to whether it’s due to the presence of partial male strength/size advantage or the absence of some factors of female disadvantage eg training needing to be arranged around periods and pregnancies).

I would imagine (personal speculation!) that any additional strength in people who appear more or less typically female but are karyotypically male would be due to the presence of internal testes, where relevant (or the presence of internal testes at some previous point in neonate or childhood development, since surgically removed) but how much an individual body would benefit from that strength wise will be based on other factors present or absent in the particular condition eg CAIS or PAIS.

Yes, you're right. Accepting that people believe different things is not relativism.

But to believe relativism true would be a bit silly, no? Whether post-modern or not. (I try to avoid labelling people's beliefs 'stupid'. But, well, I suppose, if the cap fits ...)

-- If you want to follow this up a bit, you might have a look at where I got that joke '... true for me ...' in an earlier post. Here it is, enlarged:
"... is it not obviously contradictory to hold a point of view while at the same time holding that no point of view is more justified or right than any other? Alan Garfinkel has put the point very wittily. In talking to his California students he once said, aping their locutions: 'You may not be coming from where I'm coming from, but I know relativism isn't true for me'." (From Hilary Putnam, Reason Truth and History, P. 119)

[Sorry for the derail. I'll stop there. Have the last word if you like.]

Orkid I think for classifications like yours that it’s largely irrelevant that it’s technically a ‘male DSD’ unless we are talking competitive sport and for that the sports federations probably need in depth, individual evidence to decide either way.

Someone who was assumed to be female right up to the point of 15/16 when the lack of menarche prompts further investigation (and then has medical intervention involving exogenous female hormones) is going to look female and be socialised female and have none-to-very-few of the factors that make males dangerous to females (possibly a little extra height and strength but not in an overwhelming or obvious way due to no male puberty).

Everyone who meets someone with one of these variants of sexual development will simply assume them to be female and will never know about the karyotype mismatch unless they are directly involved in the persons medical care/sports monitoring or are told about it by the person themselves or their friends or family.

The only reason these particular conditions (compared to something like un intervened 5ARD) come up in GC conversation is because of the trans force-teaming via the ever growing letters abbreviation or by people self IDing as ‘intersex’.

I've seen this thread but have avoided jumping in... knowing, as someone with a DSD, that would be tough going. Though, I am impressed with the general tone, and grateful to the OP for participating in the conversation...

While I appreciate the benefit of saying that there are male DSDs and female DSDs, I don't really know if classification through a table or flowgraph really works.

I see a table a page or two back classifies CAIS as a "male DSD". This seems inconceivable for most girls and women with CAIS and their families. Twenty years back I was in a support group meeting where a scientist was showing a family tree which left everyone in the room completely puzzled, until someone clarified that the CAIS individuals were being shown with the male symbol. This was a strange moment, even though everyone there knew what CAIS was.

I have a much more rare 46XY condition. My diagnosis at age 16 relied on a laparoscopy exam as my gyn/obs doctor - with experience of treating thousands of women and daily looking at women in stirrups - couldn't see anything different though examining me several times after trying to induce menstruation with several hormones over months. And yet the scientific table would probably classify me as having a "male DSD".

If I ever think "I wish I didn't have this condition", the alternative in my mind is that I would have the same life I've had always, but maybe with the possibility of having children, and more feminine curves. But never is the scientific alternative, that if I didn't have this one gene damaged I would be male. (I am finding it even difficult to write that I would be a... man. It's just unimaginable.)

I was friends with several women with PAIS and one lovely woman with 5-ARD; at that time it was common for the testes to be removed before puberty and the girl being treated with estrogen. I don't think any of these friends ever thought of having a "gender identity" - they (and I) couldn't see ourselves as male. None had any androgenisation or thought of any fluidity between the sexes. We all knew the science and the whole XX/XY thing but just went on with our lives as women.

This was all early days of the trans movement, but our Support Group was courted by several of the trans organizations in a pursuit of some medical justification that MtF trans people (I know, old-fashioned term) suffered a mild form of Androgen Insensitivity. I recall the group was adamant to stay away from any such umbrella. It seems in the end the GRA offered a different avenue without needing to have a medical justification for someone to be trans.

Sorry for all this rambling, I have not read the whole thread but just thought I'd put in a few words as someone with an intersex condition or DSD. (I don't like either term as it happens.)

Not using pronouns is the same as not wearing a hijab. Both are part of belief systems I do not subscribe to.

Post-modern relativism =/= reluctantly accepting that some people believe really stupid things.

I think it matters whether there is a god. I also think it matters whether there is such a thing as gender identity.

Why does it matter to me? One reason has always been to do with my children - and, more recently, their children. I just do think it's important to tell children the truth, including that there is such a thing as truth.

It cannot be true there's no truth ... nor could it be correct that nothing is correct. Can you see why?

This is not to say we should discriminate against people who think differently - about god or gender identity ... or truth for that matter. We should not treat such people badly at all. We should treat everyone as well as we can. (That's also something I taught my children because I think it's true.)

I may be mistaken about some or all of this. Of course recognising there is a fact of the matter is far from determining what that fact is. But relativism - pretending all beliefs are on a par and none more true than any other - is a bad aspect of post-modernity with all sorts of egregious consequences, none more so than in its queer-studies-related consequences for children (and others). So it is to be avoided - even by those such as you who very likely abide not at all with post-modernist queer-studies.

I haven't made a mistake.... I'm quite happy with what I said 😁

Christians and I will never agree who is "correct" about whether god exists or not. Likewise, someone who believes that "we all have a gender identity" and I will never agree which set of pronouns are "correct".

It doesn't matter who is "correct". What matters is that nobody forces someone else to accept their belief as if it's true or uses their belief to radicalise someone into doing an extreme act.

Christians don't force people to accept their belief as true. Gender identity believers do e.g. in women's sports, claiming that sex is a spectrum and that it's "assigned at birth".

Radicalised Christians can end up doing extreme acts related to their belief in god that cause themselves and/or others harm (e.g. Waco, Jonestown). Obviously the same is true of other religions. Radicalised believers in gender identity can too (e.g. the medical scandal that self-identifies as "gender affirming care").