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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

A bit of rewriting history going on- MN didn't exist before 2020?

156 replies

GrumpyMenopausalWombWielder · 02/12/2024 14:29

https://x.com/janeclarejones/status/1863356570991743187?s=46

"This is not how the history went. The majority of the faction that is now known as the ultras turned up after 2020, largely in 2022/23. The bulk of the original grassroots of the movement were left wing feminists. That is, what happened is that a group of people who turned up later attacked the core of the original movement who had stood against trans ideology, in the first place, by themselves. And who, quite understandably, were pretty pissed off."

You'd think the fact one of the people involved in the FWS court case was a MNetter, would avoid this selective rewriting of history on who did what & when, as well as why women are still pushing for repeal of the GRA despite all the very learned professionals telling them to stop being so stupid and quiet down on that.

All the early meetings, Venice Allen ones & WPUK, were linked on these very pages, and MNetters made the bulk of the women attending. I remember getting to know people & we all eventually confirmed who we were on MN back then. This attempt to frame women who just won't shut up about repeal of the GRA as Jenny come latelys who had nothing to do with any achievements or wins, when so much of the grassroots movement were women who gathered here, raised consciousness here, organised here & networked here, is just wrong.

I'm getting pretty tired of the narrative being pushed that it's only women who are late to this, who are right wing, bigots, trolls or keyboard warriors who did feck all & have achieved nothing, who keep pushing repeal. I'd much rather the substance of the arguments were tackled instead of the endless high school level rhetoric that follows from someone questioning law fare tactics.

The GRA is bad legislation. It was when it was brought in & remains so now - even more so. Questioning why it is beyond touch is no more an ultra position than refusing to bastardise language or deny reality. But wiping out the place Mumsnet has in the story of how women fought back is a particularly stupid thing to do.

Mumsnet don't even want to be seen as playing the part in this that this place did - they certainly tried to suppress women's language & opinions, and banned lots of women who stood firm. They didn't slope off never to be seen again. They got active & were the backbone of the grassroots movement that's shifted the dial in the U.K.

OP posts:
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JawsCushion · 02/12/2024 21:17

I was on here 2004.

AdventCarols · 02/12/2024 21:15

Talkinpeace · 02/12/2024 20:46

For the GRC holding person I know and their GRC holding friends

a) Lock down the GRA - no new GRCs issued
b) Add in a 'removal' clause - so that transmen who get pregnant lose theirs and transwomen who rape or get women pregnant lose theirs
c) Reinstate gender dysphoria as a requirement
backed up with improved funding of talking therapies for the gender confused
d) Require at least one of the sign off doctors to have never worked in a gender clinic

But we still can’t ask if someone has one so can’t deny men access to female spaces? Still have their data recorded as female? Still have them taking our language? Denying women their own category?

To keep your friend happy?

Turkeyhen · 02/12/2024 21:04

Another one here who owes a debt to dittany from 2008 ish through to 2011 ish when a lot of us left MN.

ditalini · 02/12/2024 20:53

AyeRobot · 02/12/2024 20:05

Dittany left MN in 2011. It was she who peaked me and also made me realise that the GRA had to go if women's rights had any meaning. 2020, pah.

If I'm honest, I don't really understand the left/right tribalism in the context of feminism.

I was looking for mention of dittany.

She raised my consciousness and made me feel uncomfortable (because I wanted to be kind ) and warned of the consequences of giving ground on things like pronouns.

At a guess I'd say that was 2008 or so. I change names all the time but could probably work it out by looking for the thread where I naïvely thought we could keep female and give them woman and she put me right in no uncertain, and prophetic, terms.

Talkinpeace · 02/12/2024 20:46

RedToothBrush · 02/12/2024 19:36

Now THAT'S a question and a half...

Pass.

For the GRC holding person I know and their GRC holding friends

a) Lock down the GRA - no new GRCs issued
b) Add in a 'removal' clause - so that transmen who get pregnant lose theirs and transwomen who rape or get women pregnant lose theirs
c) Reinstate gender dysphoria as a requirement
backed up with improved funding of talking therapies for the gender confused
d) Require at least one of the sign off doctors to have never worked in a gender clinic

Bodeganights · 02/12/2024 20:43

Bodeganights · 02/12/2024 20:40

Meh, call me any damn name you choose, I know where I was pre 2020, I've been on here since at least 2015. And having this conversation since 2002 give or take.

So long as we are actually getting somewhere and things are going in the right direction, I can not bring myself to care what some random people want to label me. Knock yourselves out, just get rid of the gra

Just seen dittany left in 2011, so I was here before her leaving. Just for info and to be included in the book/film 😘

Bodeganights · 02/12/2024 20:40

Meh, call me any damn name you choose, I know where I was pre 2020, I've been on here since at least 2015. And having this conversation since 2002 give or take.

So long as we are actually getting somewhere and things are going in the right direction, I can not bring myself to care what some random people want to label me. Knock yourselves out, just get rid of the gra

RethinkingLife · 02/12/2024 20:39

For a number of posters on those threads brought back to life by thread archaeologists, it would be fascinating to know if some of the posters had changed their minds as experience revealed that so many of the apprehensions came to pass.

ArabellaScott · 02/12/2024 20:30

ItsNotUnusualToBe · 02/12/2024 20:23

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/1481205-Radfem2012-banning-trans-people?page=1 this is a fun read down memory lane. I remember posting on the thread aware that I'd been lurking in agreement for at least a year before posting myself. Ah- it looks like the days before TERF was coined. I'm another one who was radicalised in the Mumsnet portal with particular admiration for Dittany. I remember reading the logic set out and thinking "yes I can see why you think it could head that way but it won't get to that surely? Surely? "

Wow, imagine the Guardian publishing Sheila Jeffreys these days? I've gone so far back in time that I'm back in time before the upside-down.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/may/29/transgenderism-hate-speech

AlisonDonut · 02/12/2024 20:25

RedToothBrush · 02/12/2024 18:38

Hands up who remembers Wes Streeting and Lily Madigan?

MN FWR does.

I have the original screenshots which I never post because they have names of women on there. But yes I have them.

ItsNotUnusualToBe · 02/12/2024 20:23

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/1481205-Radfem2012-banning-trans-people?page=1 this is a fun read down memory lane. I remember posting on the thread aware that I'd been lurking in agreement for at least a year before posting myself. Ah- it looks like the days before TERF was coined. I'm another one who was radicalised in the Mumsnet portal with particular admiration for Dittany. I remember reading the logic set out and thinking "yes I can see why you think it could head that way but it won't get to that surely? Surely? "

GrumpyMenopausalWombWielder · 02/12/2024 20:19

AyeRobot · 02/12/2024 20:05

Dittany left MN in 2011. It was she who peaked me and also made me realise that the GRA had to go if women's rights had any meaning. 2020, pah.

If I'm honest, I don't really understand the left/right tribalism in the context of feminism.

I didn't realise that was so long ago. She educated so many in ways I don't think she'll ever know or understand. She's a massive loss & god, I'd love to have had her voice on here when the whole thing exploded.

OP posts:
ArabellaScott · 02/12/2024 20:12

Also 2016: a 1000 post thread on self ID:

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/2734911-Consquences-of-self-identification

AyeRobot · 02/12/2024 20:05

Dittany left MN in 2011. It was she who peaked me and also made me realise that the GRA had to go if women's rights had any meaning. 2020, pah.

If I'm honest, I don't really understand the left/right tribalism in the context of feminism.

UtopiaPlanitia · 02/12/2024 19:59

ArabellaScott · 02/12/2024 16:30

I'll take it as a positive sign that people are now sharpening their elbows to jostle for position in a movement that has grown from tiny pockets of resistance to a massive international wave of reasonable people believing in material reality (but more importantly, feeling increasingly comfortable stating it).

We got here by many women putting their own careers and wellbeing at risk. Hopefully there is less risk now, after so many precedents have been hard won by brave, bold and tenacious women. Still work to be done. On we go.

Edited

I think what we’re seeing is division caused by the professionalisation of Gender Critical work by people who are happy to work within the current system as opposed to people who aren’t professional but volunteers, to whom this matters on a personal level and to whom compromise on women’s rights is inimical.

RedToothBrush · 02/12/2024 19:48

I think campaigning to repeal it, is a mistake.

Why?

Because backlash.

I think, at this point, using the law to uphold women's rights and pursue protecting women's rights is the smart move.

It has the most capital with the public at large. There's support for it which is fairly broad.

I'd rather let the GRA will collapse under the weight of its own bullshit rather than go headlong into the trap of direct confrontation.

The net result might ultimately be same outcome on terms of the GRA, but I think there are different outcomes for women as a whole. And actually for those identifying as trans too - keeping in mind the high percentage who are actually pretty vulnerable and are being potentially exploited by others. A direct conflict serves no one but the most hardline right wingers and misogynists.

AdventCarols · 02/12/2024 19:37

RedToothBrush · 02/12/2024 19:36

Now THAT'S a question and a half...

Pass.

So you think it doesn’t work, can’t think of how it could work, but don’t think it should be repealed?

RedToothBrush · 02/12/2024 19:36

AdventCarols · 02/12/2024 19:35

In your mind, what would a Gender Recognition Act that ‘worked’ look like?

Now THAT'S a question and a half...

Pass.

AdventCarols · 02/12/2024 19:35

RedToothBrush · 02/12/2024 19:22

I'm not in the camp of wanting to actively campaign to repeal the GRA.

I see the GRA through the lens of it not really working and it being at odds with other areas of the law.

And in that sense, even if you are supportive of transition rights it doesn't really service trans people and their best interests well as a result.

It strikes me that ultimately it's going to come to a head legally and have a natural end point without much need for campaigning. So why bother?

Does this make me an ultra for foreseeing the Legal Equivalent of a Space Time Paradox?

I don't think it does.

I'm more into political realities and how they always ultimately play out.

In your mind, what would a Gender Recognition Act that ‘worked’ look like?

AdventCarols · 02/12/2024 19:33

Talkinpeace · 02/12/2024 18:54

@AdventCarols
Replacing one piece of legislation (the Disability Discrimination Act) with a more comprehensive one that goes further (Equality Act 2010)
is very very different from repealing an act and leaving nothing in its place.

The GRA will not vanish in a puff of smoke.
Something will replace it to "protect" the current GRC holders.

Why does something need to protect current GRC holders? Perpetuate a lie? The fact that something is difficult or rare doesn’t mean it is not the right thing.

RedToothBrush · 02/12/2024 19:22

UtopiaPlanitia · 02/12/2024 16:13

My understanding of events online are that Michael Foran and JCJ, and a few others, have been lecturing on TwiX over the last few days that people disagreeing with them on issues like repealing GRA 2004 or amending EA 2010 (or about the use of language in the gender debate) are Ultras.

Whether she meant to or not, Janice Turner has given the world a new term to use to denigrate women who do not agree with compromise on women’s rights. And now, any time a woman disagrees with one of the so-called “Acceptable Faces” of gender criticism, she gets labelled an Ultra and dismissed.

This sneering at women (and men) who want to hold the line is getting tiresome and I won’t be treated, by these people who label other as Ultras, as if they are my betters.

It’s a civic/public debate and a wide range of opinions is allowed, as is disagreement!

Oops, this was supposed to be a reply to your question Crafty, the quote function didn’t work for some reason.

Edited

I'm not in the camp of wanting to actively campaign to repeal the GRA.

I see the GRA through the lens of it not really working and it being at odds with other areas of the law.

And in that sense, even if you are supportive of transition rights it doesn't really service trans people and their best interests well as a result.

It strikes me that ultimately it's going to come to a head legally and have a natural end point without much need for campaigning. So why bother?

Does this make me an ultra for foreseeing the Legal Equivalent of a Space Time Paradox?

I don't think it does.

I'm more into political realities and how they always ultimately play out.

Interlaken · 02/12/2024 19:21

I’ve been here (in various guises) since the Vanity Fair cover, so 2014 It’s amazing how consistently the same answer is given to “what was your initial reaction to the Vanity Fair cover?”

I got deleted around 2020 for using the phrasing “she took the cable car to peak trans”.

But in 2024, I felt like I was late to the game.

edit: obviously 2014

LondonWeeknd · 02/12/2024 19:14

I learned all I knew in the beginning from MN and thought I got involved in 2017 but I was on here before the Spartacus thread so it was even earlier than I thought.

We do ourselves no favours bickering within and it annoys me that some people position themselves as the arbiter of whose involvement counts.

Everyone's opinion is just as valid as anyone else, albeit we have some stellar, erudite and knowledgeable people who have led the charge on many fronts.

JingleB · 02/12/2024 19:09

Talkinpeace · 02/12/2024 18:15

I peaked on here when LangCleg was banned - tried to work out what the name changes were about and my head exploded

Many of the "repeal the GRA" crew get cross when its pointed out that laws are very very rarely repealed
and thus the incremental approach is all we really have.

JCJ blocks all those who question her so has no real idea where the discussion is

The banning of LangCleg was a particularly dishonourable moment on MN. Some of the convoluted FWR special rules were ludicrous.

However, all credit for MN for not bowing to pressure to boot us all out. That pressure must have been pretty godawful.

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