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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Is the Kink Scene a Cult? Interesting Podcast

321 replies

BelaLugosisThread · 26/11/2024 08:33

Was I In a Cult UK Kink Scene episode

Latest episodes of the 'Was I In A Cult?' Podcast features a guest who gives a shocking account of the UK Kink Scene. She states the scene acts as a cover for coercive control and abuse and gives a horrifying example of attempts to link 'dark age players' to "Minor Attracted Persons"/ AKA paedophiles

From the comments it appears "Kink shaming" is the new hate crime as there's quite a pile on in response to these episodes. The guest provides a convincing feminist critique of this subculture and I found her story alarming. Yet it appears only 'lived experience' that fits a certain narrative is authentic as she is widely dismissed as phobic and bigoted.

Worth a listen

Spotify

https://open.spotify.com/episode/7wZBTMvqPLRDfQdby4XPnz?si=GYbr_gYtQXuZYryIgN0-Xg

OP posts:
ThisBrickOtter · 03/12/2024 13:36

desigma · 03/12/2024 13:32

yeah, the issue with finding a "kink aware" therapist is that they're almost certainly invested in the scene in some way. They practise kink themselves. They don't see any problem with it, so they're kink affirming.

Exactly this. To my mind it's a bit like being from a religious community and say, only getting marriage counselling from an individual within that community.

In my view that can encourage a focus on individual behaviours while avoiding questions about the impact of the wider community and culture.

desigma · 03/12/2024 13:32

yeah, the issue with finding a "kink aware" therapist is that they're almost certainly invested in the scene in some way. They practise kink themselves. They don't see any problem with it, so they're kink affirming.

BelaLugosisThread · 03/12/2024 13:13

@Echobelly props to you to listening to the podcast and coming back to respond. It's a good thing to be able to critically reflect and own what we do.

Your support of the kink scene recognises and reveals many problems:

You agree that it can be a cover for predatory behaviour

It is likely to be more dangerous for attractive, desirable women. Women's experiences on the scene will vary according to attractiveness, age and vulnerability, amongst other things.

You stress that the scene isn't the only place where bad things happen. Culturally not all our outlets are healthy. There's other bad places, bad groups, bad practices, bad behaviour. I agree with you here. I just don't find "whataboutery" a persuasive justification. I would disagree with a lot of the "is no worse than" examples. I see plenty of false equivalence but I think that point has been well covered on the thread already.

Also you say your involvement in the scene is somewhat shallow. I would wager that this attitude has served you well in protecting you from head fuckery.

I agree with your observation that the kink scene doesn't demand that you cut the vanillas out of your life. It isn't didactic in that way cults are. However I do think on a subtler level it promotes group think and a hierarchical in/out group. This could be isolating, yes. Insidious- yes. Particularly in respect to peer groups but it is tenuous and alarmist to think that by going to a munch you will become estranged from your family, say.

You appear to disagree with "your kink is not my kink but that's ok" and feel comfortable in recognising and being able to say things squick you out. I think that this is the most healthy way of engaging with the kink scene. Keeping your own values and sense of perspective. As I said before, I totally get why you don't want to be equated to absolute wrong 'uns. That's a level of shame and demonisation I don't think the scene as a whole deserves. I agree with your 'much like anywhere' comments that you will meet some interesting people on the scene.

Is your yum worth the yuk? I don't think so but appreciate you and others will have differing priorities and perspectives.

OP posts:
ThisBrickOtter · 03/12/2024 12:54

Echobelly · 02/12/2024 20:56

So I have finally found time to listen to the podcast, thanks for bringing it up @BelaLugosisThread

I'd still say 'not a cult', even if there can be cult-like features, but 'The UK Kink Scene' does not, for example, demand you cut all 'vanilla' people from your life. Some people may choose to do that. I don't think there's a sense that you cannot possibly criticise or be grossed out by other people's kinks. But as I said earlier, yes, like many intense scenarios, it can absolutely be a cover for abuse.

It kind of made the munches sound like they were some sinister thing to draw people in but I've just found them fun places to have a chat with some interesting people. Others do hook up through them, but there's no pressure to do anything. But then again, I am not a beautiful and not very life-experiences 20-something, and yes, it could go badly from there.

At the end of the day my associations with the scene are relatively shallow so I know there's probably plenty I am missing, but like many things it is a double edged sword. For many it brings happiness, fulfillment and acceptance, and for others it can bring abuse and regret - like quite a lot of things in life, be it a religious community or a liking to go out and drink a lot, for example.

Thoughtful post, thanks for sharing.

I'm leaning towards cult-like to cult enabling environment. I know from my time involved, it's not hard for cults of personality to form within the context of the scene. The subculture itself provides a script and an environment that seems to discourage thinking deeply, while also encouraging hierarchies. The norm of seeking a 'kink aware therapist' if an individual does start working on their trauma, is also telling. It's not in the podcast and I'd love to hear more discussion about the culty elements, and the problem elements of BDSM, so at least there's a counter to the public narrative of "there's nothing to see here, everything is fine".

Leaving the Scene was more like leaving a religious group than a sports group. That was my experience. I'm glad it's in my rear view mirror and I'd love to see more support for people to choose to leave. Dipping back in and I can see not clearly how it can be incredibly hard to leave, especially if one has made personal sacrifices (yes I'm looking at those who discover trans while involved in the scene and then go on to make life and body changing decisions while in that toxic environment) or deep commitments of time.

If people will get involved, ensure it's balanced with other activities, keep your non-kink friends, and keep engaging with the critical perspectives. That's my thinking as of this minute!

Echobelly · 02/12/2024 20:56

So I have finally found time to listen to the podcast, thanks for bringing it up @BelaLugosisThread

I'd still say 'not a cult', even if there can be cult-like features, but 'The UK Kink Scene' does not, for example, demand you cut all 'vanilla' people from your life. Some people may choose to do that. I don't think there's a sense that you cannot possibly criticise or be grossed out by other people's kinks. But as I said earlier, yes, like many intense scenarios, it can absolutely be a cover for abuse.

It kind of made the munches sound like they were some sinister thing to draw people in but I've just found them fun places to have a chat with some interesting people. Others do hook up through them, but there's no pressure to do anything. But then again, I am not a beautiful and not very life-experiences 20-something, and yes, it could go badly from there.

At the end of the day my associations with the scene are relatively shallow so I know there's probably plenty I am missing, but like many things it is a double edged sword. For many it brings happiness, fulfillment and acceptance, and for others it can bring abuse and regret - like quite a lot of things in life, be it a religious community or a liking to go out and drink a lot, for example.

icelolly12 · 02/12/2024 20:26

Fabulous post @WandsOut

Pashazade · 02/12/2024 15:14

Fortunately the hosts are unlikely to be bothered as they have poked much bigger bears than the UK Kink scene!

AstonUniversityScrapedMyCorpus · 02/12/2024 13:08

Now that, @WandsOut, is a most excellent post.

I wish all young women had access to such sage advice.

I would love to have a real life meet up with all of the posters on this thread who have witnessed the Kink and Fetish scene and come out of the other side because I reckon we would have an absolute blast.

The refusal to Dick Pander is a revolutionary act!

Oh, and back to the podcast topic, I noticed on Spotify that this is the only one of the ‘Was I in a Cult?’ podcast’s episodes to have multiple comments that are a variation on, ‘I liked this podcast until you covered this topic and now I AM NEVER LISTENING AGAIN! USUBSCRIBE, UNSUBSCRIBE!’ Or being rude about the guests/minimising the guests experience which seems pretty culty… I’m sure that’s not lost on the hosts.

(a cursory glance at other episodes suggests the most common comment on previous episodes is complaints about too many ads)

BelaLugosisThread · 02/12/2024 12:57

Such a good post @WandsOut

Appreciate everyone who has shared their experiences and insights. A truly helpful thread.

OP posts:
WandsOut · 02/12/2024 12:28

Trigger warning for extreme sexual abuse

tA question that has guided me through many challenging situations is: “Why am I doing this, and why am I pushing these boundaries if they make me uncomfortable?”

This question extends beyond specific scenarios—I’ve applied it to all areas of my life. For example, why am I with this person if being with them makes me uncomfortable? Why am I staying in this job if it leaves me feeling uneasy?

When it comes to intimacy, it’s worth reflecting on whether the acts in our sex life make us uncomfortable, and if so, asking ourselves why we continue with them. This isn’t something any of us need to answer publicly, and it’s entirely possible we are completely at ease and happy with where we are. For me, the answers have varied greatly depending on the person or situation, but the act of questioning has always helped me find clarity.

Other thoughts... and it's good to explore thoughts because usually most of us have been socialised to not question a single thing that privileges males and centers the male erection, especially from the Lib fem perspective which is lazy and male oriented whilst putting on a show of strength - I saw how some supposedly edgy burlesque shows just turned into a group of men standing silently ogling very young skinny women taking their clothes off and was told it was liberation “because the girls wanted to do it.” But it was just the same old erections, same creepy men, completely empowered by middle class young women centering their penises. Walking past one of these men, I felt a hand where it shouldn't be. I was not part of the act but just a woman in the audience. He couldn't distinguish where the line was.

Ultimately what we are seeing is a thought terminating statement that has stifled our questions or discomfort with "Don't shame my kink"

Something that happens over time as you find out what makes you uncomfortable is that you also start to know what feels safe... unless your perception of safety has been skewed by trauma. And trauma begets more trauma as a person acts out to try and obliterate the guilt/shame/horror/fear/rejection feelings. A hamster wheel of increasingly dangerous encounters.

I remember a ten year deadly cycle a friend went through in her early twenties, she had a highly skilled career, she was from a loving family, she was absolutely stunning, but had found herself in a situation with a man who kept pushing the sex to uncomfortable extremes. She became addicted to his late night calls. I remember her saying to me after about six years of this torture that she didn’t know how to be with anyone “nice” anymore and who would want her anyway after this? The next four years were a string of debasing experiences with men on Tinder as she tried to feel alive. One worse than the next, culminating in her trying to take her life. She was a normal young woman who had been pulled into a set of behaviours that made her not recognise herself. It’s easily done.

Everybody wants to feel wanted, adored, loved, cherished. But the Pavlov's Dog effect of how and who we get that love can warp us into something unrecognisable to ourselves. Of course everyone will have different ideas of what they classify as kink etc etc etc and it's the more extreme things I'm talking about here that could lead to obvious physical danger, as she mentions in the podcast, about how you learn to do those things is by doing those things.

Things that require a safe word.

I know of many women who have said to me that the safe word was ignored, along with the "no", the "please no" and the "I'm scared" and in some cases, the woman herself crying in silence because the man she was with had no empathy.

It's so easy to find yourself pushing boundaries from a sense of disgust with yourself, wanting the kind of security and love you imagine other people having and then finding a way to be disgusted at them at having it "Vanilla! Boring!" Which is when we see the "Other Woman" type of thinking as beautifully played out on this thread earlier although those posts were deleted.

@LaundryFondue it sounds like yourself and your consensual partner are pushing limits between yourselves, there are lots of limits which aren't deadly, so maybe it’s more about picking your poison as it were. I obviously don't know how deadly your kinks are and obviously you don't have to say. (This post isn’t specifically aimed at you, but I’ve been thinking about your thoughtful comments whilst trying to get my thoughts down too)

I know a couple whose fetish involved her undoing his belt buckle with her teeth until one of her front teeth cracked out one day. Another friend used to engage in knife handles being inserted but then she found out he was having sex with an ex, so she left him and the idea of doing that again with anyone else turned her off because she associated it with him. The turn on switched off.
Another friend said she would weep during extreme anal, her partner ignored her tears... and her body tissue tearing.

Several friends have endured cross dressing partners whose pushing of their boundaries have slipped into mimicry, denigration and gaslighting. The lines are wavy. Easily pushed or manipulated. But only we have the ability to step back back from them if we haven't gotten in so deep that we can't see ourselves anymore. The women my age (50’s) have had to manage laddette culture, the pressure of pornified “role models” entering the mainstream (look what carnage poor Pamela Anderson herself has had to deal with) and drug and rave scene. We aren’t virgins, physically or mentally. We’ve seen it all which is why the trans thing is now becoming so tiresome to many of us. Fucking tiring to still having to say no to men. And let’s make no mistakes, as far as men seeing women as invisible at a certain age, this hasn’t happened to me, I still get men following me home, still have to deal with weird messages, still at this age finding myself having to block men I’ve known for years for making inappropriate comments about my appearance. They. Never. Change.

Questioning everything after sleepwalking can feel terrifying, as we are seeing now with the young woman "trans activist allies" who are suddenly seeing how entitled their "assigned male at birth" friends are and start to recognise how quickly the same old dynamics that their "Fuck the Patriarchy T.M." hoodie from Amazon re-emerge and establish themselves in the new world order where now, there are no electric fences, no safeguarding measures, no support system and no one capable of speaking the truth is left to speak for them in their friend group, who were of course socially acceptable and carefully curated to agree with them as the more and more into the scene.

I’m recovering from the wreckage that the men in my life have brought upon me with their inhumane desires. I’m also recovering from the wreckage I brought upon myself by not getting out of certain situations sooner. I’m lucky I physically survived some of the encounters I’ve been foolish enough to allow myself to get into.

So many of us are still here by luck alone.

Any situation which pushes boundaries whereby there is a risk of violent death is not something we should be condoning in Teen Vogue or mainstream conversations.

Strangulation is attempted murder.
Extreme torture is attempted murder.
We’ve just seen a spate of major news stories where women have been raped so savagely including orally they have died.

We have a responsibility to talk about what makes us feel scared and uncomfortable and to be allowed to do that is a gift. How many conversations are not being had in the spaces between the agreed safe words. How do we know what makes us feel safe unless we can talk about what makes us feel unsafe?

LaundryFondue · 01/12/2024 21:34

ThisBrickOtter · 01/12/2024 21:32

Vulnerability is dynamic and situationally produced. You can make yourself less vulnerable by keeping you eyes and mind open and nowing what your values are and what your boundaries are.

Never trust fast friends, male feminists and a lot of the women on the scene are dick panderers, and I don't trust dick panderers.

Adding to that, men that pay lip service

ThisBrickOtter · 01/12/2024 21:32

LaundryFondue · 01/12/2024 21:22

Yes. I wouldn't engage in risky behaviour with someone I don't know. I only do it with my one partner, and our relationship isn't based on kink, it's an added bonus at times when we are both in the space for it. I guess I'm lucky in that my and his kinks align. He has also read this thread and we are actively discussing it, because we both recognise the potential for damage for both of us, and for wider people in the kink community.

Fundamentally it comes back to the scene as a whole (which we're not really engaged in) and how to safeguard the vulnerable people in it. Because (generalising) the vulnerable people are women, and I, trying to be a feminist, is my business to do something about. But how?

Vulnerability is dynamic and situationally produced. You can make yourself less vulnerable by keeping you eyes and mind open and nowing what your values are and what your boundaries are.

Never trust fast friends, male feminists and a lot of the women on the scene are dick panderers, and I don't trust dick panderers.

LaundryFondue · 01/12/2024 21:22

ThisBrickOtter · 01/12/2024 20:52

Anything that involves a special type of prescribed care just seems so emotionally distant to me now. You want to spend time entangled with each other after an intimate moment.

What people do behind closed doors is their own business quite frankly. The kink scene/kilt something else.

Keep reading round, getting different opinions. If you feel numb from yourself or overly emotional and don't know why. Take a break and listen to it.

I'm of the view for many the attraction comes from trauma, others predatory, others exploring and a lot of neurodiverse people!

Never forget it's an environment that attracts predators and a lot can go wrong in a room alone with a man.

Yes. I wouldn't engage in risky behaviour with someone I don't know. I only do it with my one partner, and our relationship isn't based on kink, it's an added bonus at times when we are both in the space for it. I guess I'm lucky in that my and his kinks align. He has also read this thread and we are actively discussing it, because we both recognise the potential for damage for both of us, and for wider people in the kink community.

Fundamentally it comes back to the scene as a whole (which we're not really engaged in) and how to safeguard the vulnerable people in it. Because (generalising) the vulnerable people are women, and I, trying to be a feminist, is my business to do something about. But how?

ThisBrickOtter · 01/12/2024 20:52

LaundryFondue · 01/12/2024 18:15

Sadly I don't remember her name. I could try and find it out when I have time. In answer to your question of true vulnerability while engaging in kink, yes, a handful of times, and these were discussed with my partner afterwards. However I don't always use kink to be vulnerable, sometimes it's just for pleasure and fun and we like to do it. Just like I am only occasionally truly vulnerable in real life conversations with them, not all the time, and we also discuss and put in place care afterwards for that too.

Anything that involves a special type of prescribed care just seems so emotionally distant to me now. You want to spend time entangled with each other after an intimate moment.

What people do behind closed doors is their own business quite frankly. The kink scene/kilt something else.

Keep reading round, getting different opinions. If you feel numb from yourself or overly emotional and don't know why. Take a break and listen to it.

I'm of the view for many the attraction comes from trauma, others predatory, others exploring and a lot of neurodiverse people!

Never forget it's an environment that attracts predators and a lot can go wrong in a room alone with a man.

LaundryFondue · 01/12/2024 18:15

ThisBrickOtter · 01/12/2024 11:52

Appreciate you engaging in good faith. You remind me of my early days in the subculture. It's great that you're thoroughly thinking about this and getting different views.

I can say I don't think I could have talked myself out of it at the start, it just felt too right. It's only on coming out of the other side have I been able to make peace with it all. I got into it as a reaction to childhood shit. Met a lot of damaged people, and some great people too (who also left any I'm in touch with).

I will pick up on your point about feeling vulnerable in kink and leave you with this challenge. Really? Authentically vulnerable? Entirely exposed and entwined with the one you love? Or do you need a fair bit of paraphernalia to aid the process? Watch out for that. The more paraphernalia and ritual involved, the less vulnerability is exposed. Vulnerability is freestyle jazz dancing to each others minds and body's. It is not a checklist of agreed ritualistic acts.

What was the talk you went to? I've also been to one by a woman with a PhD and thought it was the BDSM equivalent of Jordan Peterson stitching together arguments and 'research' to get the message "it's all fine here" across. It felt like a recruitment campaign. I'm also very away that a lot of the BDSM 'research' is done by BDSM practitioners.

In a similar vein, went to a porn and young people conference years ago, with actual independent researchers. Making a very different case for online porn causing fear of sex, mysogyny, harming self image and really damaging young men in particulars ability to form healthy relationships with women. The speakers outlined how it was hard to get their research out there, due to the amount of pro-propaganda research funded by the industry. Porn feels like the cigarette smoking of our age. BDSM researchers the hardcore smokers determined to prove the bad practice they've committed to, and lost so much to, is actually really good and healthy.

Ah yes, I never left any sport activity with sexual trauma! Or a sense I'd punched myself in the face for the pleasure of another, somehow.

Sadly I don't remember her name. I could try and find it out when I have time. In answer to your question of true vulnerability while engaging in kink, yes, a handful of times, and these were discussed with my partner afterwards. However I don't always use kink to be vulnerable, sometimes it's just for pleasure and fun and we like to do it. Just like I am only occasionally truly vulnerable in real life conversations with them, not all the time, and we also discuss and put in place care afterwards for that too.

LaundryFondue · 01/12/2024 18:11

Yes, I also am genuinely concerned by the extreme ends of opinions on this thread (and also the extreme ends of some of the trans debate threads that are on here).

I rarely post because I'm still in information finding/curiousity mode for both, and don't have fully informed thoughts on either topic yet. I am liking the balanced insightful posts when they appear, so thank you to those that are able to engage in a less reactive/emotionally charged way.

AstonUniversityScrapedMyCorpus · 01/12/2024 17:54

Its genuinely concerned me how some posters think in this thread

Yep, it’s very ‘ALL my boyfriend’s EX girlfriends are completely insane - I know this because my boyfriend told me. Of course there isn’t anything wrong with HIM!’

re: calling a PP a junkie - I was at the same events, likely at the same time frame, sober because I wasn’t a patron, just there for the cash in hand work and drug use was rife. It was party drugs (ecstasy, cocaine, poppers etc) not junkie drugs (heroin, crack, ketamine etc). You know, the sort of inhibition lowering drugs that make you dance and overheat and take more clothes off and snog strangers.

Maybe Fat didn’t get invited to those parties? Or was only allowed in the non VIP areas? If Fat’s kink events don’t have licensed bars they must be the low end swingers/sex on premises venues with the hose down furniture?

(speaking of VIPs and mention of Marilyn Manson upthread, one of the women who accused him of sexual assault was part of the TG/Submission crowd at same sort of time frame I attended, Esmé Bianco.
Not a personal friend but a friend-of-a-friend and imo, hanging around these sorts of clubs definitely made it harder for young women to tell a shaggable rockstar from a sex predator because abusive behaviour (derogatory language, violence, adultery etc) is normalised)

Personally I can’t imagine anything less sexy than needing special paraphernalia or convoluted role play to get off but I wouldn’t give a shit what consenting adults do behind closed doors if I wasn’t acutely aware that consent can be coerced, both directly and indirectly (via in group/out group pressure).

It’s a lot like stripping/prostitution, it can feel really normal when you are in it (all your friends do it too!) but years later, looking back, you can see how you would never have gotten involved if you hadn’t experienced childhood trauma + fallen into a situation with coercive/grooming dynamics.

I can’t fall for the pro Kink propaganda because I’ve seen these people with my own eyes and it’s creepy and awkward rather than hot and attractive,

Namechanhedforthe1000thtime · 01/12/2024 16:48

Its genuinely concerned me how some posters think in this thread. The kink scene is a cult and there are many many groups who will cover and lie for each other.

I've had to scroll through old conversations to find this, this was from 2022. The 2 men worked ( I think they still do tbh ! ) at a very popular club.

The fact theyve called it rape and joke about it. Is so very disturbing. Coincidently enough, it was on of their friends who was accused of rape, the victim who had NEVER even been to their club was called all sorts of names by the club publicly,

The kink scene is a cult, there are some nice safe people but they are few and far between. It's the "safe" gangs in the spotlight people want to keep an eye on

Is the Kink Scene a Cult? Interesting Podcast
Namechanhedforthe1000thtime · 01/12/2024 16:22

ThisBrickOtter · 01/12/2024 14:33

Content warning for role play of child abuse!

One guy had recently been charged with installing cameras into women's toilets. He was active on fetlife. I'm aware of another, whose profile screamed 'I'M PAEDOPHILE', but because it's the Scene, that was fine as long as it was CoNseNsAal. I feel it a bit for his partner. Think she had a kid, and there were plenty of pictures of her romping with him in teenage undies. Also one really pathetic account of a dominant woman, experimenting with age play, describing noshing him off while he watched regular porn, but pretended she was his daughter. She deleted not long after. You're not supposed to tell people what actually happens!

There's loads of these creeps and criminals lingering in the shadows.

Two of the men who work behind the bar at townhouse had rape on their fet profiles, joking about how it was okay because it was consensual. They both removed it after some back lash from the community

It's one of their friends whose partner dresses up as a school girl and her partner watches whilst she has sex with old men, they brag about it on fetlife 🤢🤢 there is a proper term for what they do but I cant think what it's called.... coincidently enough, all the people I've just mentioned are friends with the man who was accused of raping a younger woman on the scene.

Some of them dont even linger in the shadows, they put themselves in the spot light, say all the right things, make all the right noises and actually, their abusive in their own ways and protect their own.

ThisBrickOtter · 01/12/2024 14:33

AstonUniversityScrapedMyCorpus · 01/12/2024 14:25

Do you think we’ve never heard of ‘topping from the bottom’?

The talk of the MCR photographer reminded me I used to know a woman involved in the MCR scene (dungeon monitor for Club Lash) who was convicted of possession of child sex abuse images.

Content warning for role play of child abuse!

One guy had recently been charged with installing cameras into women's toilets. He was active on fetlife. I'm aware of another, whose profile screamed 'I'M PAEDOPHILE', but because it's the Scene, that was fine as long as it was CoNseNsAal. I feel it a bit for his partner. Think she had a kid, and there were plenty of pictures of her romping with him in teenage undies. Also one really pathetic account of a dominant woman, experimenting with age play, describing noshing him off while he watched regular porn, but pretended she was his daughter. She deleted not long after. You're not supposed to tell people what actually happens!

There's loads of these creeps and criminals lingering in the shadows.

AstonUniversityScrapedMyCorpus · 01/12/2024 14:25

ByGentleFatball · 30/11/2024 08:47

How can a dominant woman and a submissive man be hyper patriarchal? Ask your partner this tonight.

Do you think we’ve never heard of ‘topping from the bottom’?

The talk of the MCR photographer reminded me I used to know a woman involved in the MCR scene (dungeon monitor for Club Lash) who was convicted of possession of child sex abuse images.

BabaYagasHouse · 01/12/2024 12:29

WandsOut · 30/11/2024 14:25

The need to escalate the experiences to the point where boundaries and limits are constantly being tested is addictive.

In other thoughts...

The Other Woman narrative around Kink hold strong with attitudes about "vanilla" and how everyone else isn't in on the secret. Secret spaces bind people in secret pacts. But secret rooms are just that, and most men are not being honest in the secret rooms either. Men who are having affairs are not being more honest with their affair partners, not even if they are having the kind of sex they have always fantasised about, because they are usually telling lies about the woman at home. Usually the affair partner isn't an upgrade but a collection of willing body parts he can mindlessly use and then easily walk away from. She might feel like they have intimacy and special attention but he's not staying to provide security or comfort or the actual practice of love.

The kink scene uses the language of safety and infantile words such as "play" as other posters have also pointed out - knife play, breathe play...

Beyond one night stands, I've never been in a long term relationship with a man who ever classified tops/bottoms/sub/dom because these are men who are just having sex on an EQUAL level with a woman they love and also hold as an equal. The power dynamic isn't there because they aren't men addicted to a power dynamic and I'm not interested in power dynamics in bed, I'm interested in sex without games. In a partner who gives as much as he takes. My female peers in the 90's used to joke generally about submissive men being lousy lovers who can't give pleasure, and dominant men as being insensitive lovers who just get it done their way without waiting to ask you want you would like. We will all die one day, we don't have time for selfish lovers. Both types in their fetish persona extremes are selfish.

Intimacy isn't just about how someone turns you on. Intimacy isn't bloodletting or strangulation so you can get a more intense orgasm because you've desensitised your body so much you can't have an orgasm without having to use a power drill.

Intimacy is about dropping the pretence and the self deception. In other cultures sex holds a different place, in the culture I come from for example, sex is seen as a spiritual bonding, the focus can be on sensuality, deep connection, a willingness to see the other as a cosmic being equal to yourself. And if you have a partner who holds these values then it's ludicrous to suggest that they secretly crave some grubby pink toes over something as elevated and "high" as someone who sees him as a whole man, a provider, nurturer, protector, who also has pain, shame and a need for protection himself. It's ridiculous to think that men who have evolved to this level of self awareness would be comfortable strangling another human because who in their right mind for one second would risk oxygen starvation to the brain of someone they profess to love?

If a person doesn't love you, they can do anything dehumanising to you that he wants, and it's a game of seeing what the bodily reaction will be, how much your skin and orifices will break and bleed. If a someone doesn't love themselves it's easy for them to beg to be humiliated. None of this is sex. It's the abyss. Everything becomes about hard, fast obliteration to an end goal that doesn't care about you or them, but instead merges you both in pain and endorphins. It's self harm plus orgasm to "seal the deal".

People who have been sexually abused and who are healing from those power dynamics don't want more pain, they want healing experiences. When someone who has been so desensitised by abuse and coercion starts to come back to themselves and look at the rubble of the destruction that has occurred and the lies they have had to tell themselves and others in order to keep locked in the abuse cycle that they are perpetuating by participating, they often reject anything that doesn't feel connected, real, lasting and safe. There are many men I've worked with who have been sexually abused who instead of acting out the abuse on others will reject the abuse power dynamics and instead choose partners who see them as equals. One man said to me that his wife "has his back" and the idea of having sex with another woman "who doesn't have my back, makes me feel like she might turn on me or physically attack me and I wouldn't be able to sleep." Men are a bit more complicated than the snapshot of them that casual sex, sex workers or fetishists get to fully comprehend from the limitations of the brief encounter.

The kink scene whilst using the language of consent and safety, plus the infantile word "play" added to every unsafe practice imaginable, can hide the exploitation and abuse, under the guise of consensual word use as a shield to justify their actions. They may claim that harm is part of the play or manipulate partners into unsafe situations under the guise of “pushing boundaries.” There are goals, boundaries to push. Like gender ideology uses words to veil and hide intent under rainbows, there are goals, extreme goals, to prove how non vanilla you are, how exalted you have become (Clive Barker really pin (heads) this down in his ritualistic Hellraiser religious overtones)
Kink becomes a religion for believers and damn you if you don't get it.
Everything must be harder, nastier, dirtier, riskier... did something tear deep inside or is that a portal to oblivion where to quote one of Neil Gaiman's victims "The pain was celestial".

Or back in the real world you could just relax with a nice cup of tea after a really good shag and wait in bed for him to bring you some chocolate whilst all the lovey dovey feel good hormones bond you and flood you with joy and you know what it feels like to be listened to and cared for.

I said care for and not "aftercare" which sounds like some kind of perfunctory medical check up after someone has had an operation.

And this whole consent bullshit that has been spouted - fucking cheating married men with your feet takes away consent from their partners so maybe the Fetlife posters shouldn't come on all santimonious about that. A "vanilla" partner that you are feeling sorry for who is being cheated on cannot consent to sex without her knowledge of what else he's doing so really it's rape of his partner that is being encouraged and enabled by this so called secret safe space FetFoot and weak man are holding between them.

This is an incredible post Wands!
What the gender id/women conflict has set off for me, and this one here about kink, is how all of this seems to me to be a microcosm of a cultural trauma extending back eons.

It's a healing that needs to happen and we are waaaay off track right now I think.

Looking at how individuals come to health amd wholeness after trauma and abuse, is a useful model for how we do that on the macro level.

The raw and honest posts on here illustrating this are so insightful and enlightening. They stand in stark contrast to the stories of power dynamics, deceit, and hurt.

I always have the utmost admiration for those who manage to find some healing from their pasts and share their hard-earned wisdom. It gives us all hope I think.

On my view, it starts within the individual's relationship with themselves, then in relationship with others, and potentially, extends all the way out at some point to the culture at large.

For society to get to a place where where the value of sex and relationships is based on mutual care and respect, honouring of each other's unique differences and strengths, and equal humanity, and wanting what's healthiest for both self and other within relationships - is a Utopia I can get behind.

To my mind, anything else just perpetuates.

ThisBrickOtter · 01/12/2024 11:52

LaundryFondue · 30/11/2024 17:22

Not sure I would call myself pro kink. That I am trying to work it out at the moment and this thread is helping with the wide and varied opinions.

The comparisons to pushing the human body to it's limit in sports I learnt at a kink talk from a woman doing her PhD research in kink. And I am not sure I fully agree with all that I learnt there. I think I agree that the reasons for kink to exist are understandable looking at human psychology. But whether you should be allowed to do that in this society is another matter, and who gets to decide that?

As you quite rightly say, sports are safely regulated, the kink scene is not. But even then some sports aren't safely regulated - transwomen or men with DSD competing against women.

There is no overarching organisation in the kink scene and this can lead itself to a dangerous "cult". There is no agreed limit to what is acceptable. Full disclosure, for me, I think strangulation is wrong, but acknowledge that some people can experience pleasure from doing it. Just like I think cannibalism and fgm is wrong, but some societies in the world practice these. Those people that engage in those practices think they're right to do so. Who gets to say? And who's responsibility is it to ensure vulnerable people are not abused or hurt?

Lastly I think I can be vulnerable while engaging in the kink practices I get pleasure from, and that leads to increased intimacy with my partner. But it isn't the only way we are intimate or vulnerable with each other.

Edited

Appreciate you engaging in good faith. You remind me of my early days in the subculture. It's great that you're thoroughly thinking about this and getting different views.

I can say I don't think I could have talked myself out of it at the start, it just felt too right. It's only on coming out of the other side have I been able to make peace with it all. I got into it as a reaction to childhood shit. Met a lot of damaged people, and some great people too (who also left any I'm in touch with).

I will pick up on your point about feeling vulnerable in kink and leave you with this challenge. Really? Authentically vulnerable? Entirely exposed and entwined with the one you love? Or do you need a fair bit of paraphernalia to aid the process? Watch out for that. The more paraphernalia and ritual involved, the less vulnerability is exposed. Vulnerability is freestyle jazz dancing to each others minds and body's. It is not a checklist of agreed ritualistic acts.

What was the talk you went to? I've also been to one by a woman with a PhD and thought it was the BDSM equivalent of Jordan Peterson stitching together arguments and 'research' to get the message "it's all fine here" across. It felt like a recruitment campaign. I'm also very away that a lot of the BDSM 'research' is done by BDSM practitioners.

In a similar vein, went to a porn and young people conference years ago, with actual independent researchers. Making a very different case for online porn causing fear of sex, mysogyny, harming self image and really damaging young men in particulars ability to form healthy relationships with women. The speakers outlined how it was hard to get their research out there, due to the amount of pro-propaganda research funded by the industry. Porn feels like the cigarette smoking of our age. BDSM researchers the hardcore smokers determined to prove the bad practice they've committed to, and lost so much to, is actually really good and healthy.

Ah yes, I never left any sport activity with sexual trauma! Or a sense I'd punched myself in the face for the pleasure of another, somehow.

TempestTost · 01/12/2024 02:05

Also, if you need this much ceremony just to get off, you’re seriously sexually repressed.

Yes, it's very try-hard.

DrBlackbird · 30/11/2024 18:11

AlisonDonut · 30/11/2024 16:35

Just like a royal board attracts anti royals, the feminist board is like catnip for catty misogynists.

Apparently so. And as always to reprimand women for having the temerity to question who benefits and who loses in an exchange or set of arrangements.