Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

We believe there are far reaching problems with the practical application of the Equality Act in relation to this definition - EHRC

108 replies

IwantToRetire · 22/11/2024 17:48

“The central issue raised by this appeal is how ‘sex’, ‘man’ and ‘woman’ are defined in the Equality Act 2010.

“On that point, our position is that when Parliament passed the Equality Act, it intended those who have acquired a Gender Recognition Certificate (GRC) to be treated as their certified sex. So a trans woman with a GRC is legally recognised as a woman under the Equality Act, and a trans man with a GRC is legally recognised as a man.

“We look forward to the Supreme Court’s judgment providing an authoritative interpretation of the existing law in this area.”

“We believe there are far reaching problems with the practical application of the Equality Act in relation to this definition.

“It creates significant inconsistencies, which impair the proper functioning of the Equality Act and jeopardise the rights and interests of women and same-sex attracted people. These difficulties include the challenges faced by those seeking to maintain single sex spaces, and in the rights of same-sex attracted persons to form associations. We think clarity is important to everybody affected by these issues properly understanding and exercising their rights.

“It is unlikely that Parliament appreciated these consequences when it passed the Equality Act, and they have become more serious with societal change since that time.

“As the equality regulator, we deem this to be a wholly unsatisfactory situation, which Parliament should address with urgency.

“In April last year we provided advice on clarifying the definition of ‘sex’, in response to a request from the then Minister for Women and Equalities. It is our view that the arguments at the heart of this case once again highlight the importance of Parliament giving careful consideration to amending the Equality Act 2010 and the current balance of rights under the Act.”

https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/media-centre/news/ehrc-intervention-women-scotland-supreme-court-appeal

(This is in relation to forthcoming FWS court case, but thought as it is a statment from the EHRC, those not on that thread would be interested to read this. But always find it strange that all these people making all these statements never refer to why the SSE were written, ie because they did intend those with a GRC to be taken as being "legally" the other sex.)

OP posts:
IwantToRetire · 23/11/2024 03:03

Ereshkigalangcleg · 23/11/2024 02:28

Single sex exceptions aren't just about trans people. Any women's toilet is using a single sex exception.

And the reason the EA is so favourable to "trans" is because trans rights activists lobbied hard for that.

Exactly

OP posts:
Ereshkigalangcleg · 23/11/2024 02:28

Single sex exceptions aren't just about trans people. Any women's toilet is using a single sex exception.

And the reason the EA is so favourable to "trans" is because trans rights activists lobbied hard for that.

OldCrone · 23/11/2024 01:48

IwantToRetire · 23/11/2024 01:34

To repeat, the phrase is from Lady Haldane's summing up.

ie one judges assessment, which is being challenged.

But I assumed it is in fact because of the SSE. If it wasn't meant to be that with a GRC you changed sex, then you wouldn't need the SSE.

The existence of the SSE illustrates that they did intend a GRC changed your sex for all purposes.

And even in their trans extremism, they must of thought, oh dear, we better give the luddite ladies something to keep them quiet.

The single sex exceptions would still be necessary, even without the GRA.

Without the SSE, it wouldn't be possible to provide any single sex services, because that would be discriminatory against the excluded sex.

The SSE exist to legitimise single sex services and spaces.

IwantToRetire · 23/11/2024 01:38

Because this comes up on so many threads, here is the section of the Lady Haldane ruling I was referring to:

So far as the perceived difficulties that would arise in the setting up and administration of single sex spaces are concerned, appropriate protections were provided in paragraph 28 of schedule 3 to the 2010 Act. This provides that a person does not contravene section 29 (which states, read short, that service providers must not discriminate against a person requiring that service) if the conduct in question is a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim. (P16)

Thus through the lens of paragraph 28 it was perfectly possible to operate the provisions of the 2010 Act relating to single sex services, although a proportionality assessment might, depending on the circumstances, be required. In summary, the examples proffered by the petitioner did not give rise to the conclusion that “sex” in the 2010 Act could only and always mean biological sex or sex recognised at birth, rather the 2004 Act and the 2010 Act worked in harmony paying respect to the proposition that, as a matter of law, a person who obtains an acquired gender under the 2004 Act has an acquired sex for all purpose and therefore a person’s sex can, as a matter of law, be changed. Appropriate exceptions to that proposition were recognised in the legislation itself. P17)

Note in second paragraph "proportionality" = women cant just say they want to only be with other biological women.

And then also:

a person who obtains an acquired gender under the 2004 Act has an acquired sex for all purpose and therefore a person’s sex can, as a matter of law, be changed.

OP posts:
IwantToRetire · 23/11/2024 01:34

To repeat, the phrase is from Lady Haldane's summing up.

ie one judges assessment, which is being challenged.

But I assumed it is in fact because of the SSE. If it wasn't meant to be that with a GRC you changed sex, then you wouldn't need the SSE.

The existence of the SSE illustrates that they did intend a GRC changed your sex for all purposes.

And even in their trans extremism, they must of thought, oh dear, we better give the luddite ladies something to keep them quiet.

OP posts:
lordloveadog · 22/11/2024 22:59

Funny how the legislators did realize that people wouldn’t actually change sex, and that harm might come to the legal privileges of one sex, but only thought about men’s rights.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 22/11/2024 22:41

lcakethereforeIam · 22/11/2024 18:25

If a GRC changes a person's sex 'for all purposes', why the exemption for hereditary titles and the like.

I mean I know why, because that would have inconvenienced men, but it demonstrates that 'for all purposes' simply isn't true aside from the fact that humans can't actually change sex.

Basically they could only think of one situation in which treating people as their new legal sex for all purposes would disadvantage biological males and benefit biological females so they drafted an exception for that.

EastCoastDweller · 22/11/2024 22:37

It’s not just hereditary peerages that were excluded. Religious organisations were also excluded from “all purposes “. So a women can still be excluded from the priesthood in those churches that still exclude women.

ResisterOfTwaddleRex · 22/11/2024 22:17

I still don't think it is for all purposes if you consider the peers, and rape (SOA) parts of the GRA. However, maybe it's what's allowed this.

The idea a woman about to be strip searched - after all that's gone on in policing - will object and be confident (or stupid?) enough to do so, is for the birds:

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/11/22/transgender-police-allowed-strip-search-women-new-guidance/

"A BTP spokesman added: “Who British Transport Police transgender colleagues may search is determined by an interaction between the legal framework of the Police and Criminal Evidence Act (1984), Code of Practice on the Exercise by Constables of Powers of Stop and Search of the Person in Scotland 2017, and the Equality Act (2010), with the correct application of occupational requirement, and not limited to the provisions of the Gender Recognition Act (GRA) (2004).
“Therefore, an officer may only search as the sex indicated on their birth certificate or listed on their gender recognition certificate, whichever is more recent when enacting a statutory power of search under compulsion.
“A person being searched can object to being searched by any officer; this officer will be replaced by another member of the team to conduct the search in their place. This is regularly done in practice for many reasons, such as a way to de-escalate conflict.”"

Bennachie · 22/11/2024 22:08

OldCrone · 22/11/2024 21:53

The Gender Recognition Act 2004 implies that people can change sex.

9 General
(1) Where a full gender recognition certificate is issued to a person, the person’s gender becomes for all purposes the acquired gender (so that, if the acquired gender is the male gender, the person’s sex becomes that of a man and, if it is the female gender, the person’s sex becomes that of a woman).

If a man has an 'acquired gender' of female, then it implies that he is now considered to be a woman for all purposes, and also to be female.

Unless there is a hereditary peerage involved, in which case, for the purposes of inheritance only, he is still male, because it's important that men get to have their cake and eat it and women shouldn't be able to inherit peerages. This clause also contradicts the clause above, since it means that the person's 'gender' doesn't in fact become the acquired gender for all purposes.

The easiest way to solve this self-contradictory mess would be to repeal the GRA.

”subject to provision made by this Act or any other enactment or any subordinate legislation.”

i agree the GRA needs repealing.

OldCrone · 22/11/2024 21:53

LoobiJee · 22/11/2024 18:46

“On that point, our position is that when Parliament passed the Equality Act, it intended those who have acquired a Gender Recognition Certificate (GRC) to be treated as their certified sex. So a trans woman with a GRC is legally recognised as a woman under the Equality Act, and a trans man with a GRC is legally recognised as a man.

I haven’t read the EHRC submission. Does it say why they think when Parliament passed EA2010 they intended “woman means a female of any age” to include a male with a GRC, despite not specifying that “woman means a female of any age and a male with a GRC”?

Edited

The Gender Recognition Act 2004 implies that people can change sex.

9 General
(1) Where a full gender recognition certificate is issued to a person, the person’s gender becomes for all purposes the acquired gender (so that, if the acquired gender is the male gender, the person’s sex becomes that of a man and, if it is the female gender, the person’s sex becomes that of a woman).

If a man has an 'acquired gender' of female, then it implies that he is now considered to be a woman for all purposes, and also to be female.

Unless there is a hereditary peerage involved, in which case, for the purposes of inheritance only, he is still male, because it's important that men get to have their cake and eat it and women shouldn't be able to inherit peerages. This clause also contradicts the clause above, since it means that the person's 'gender' doesn't in fact become the acquired gender for all purposes.

The easiest way to solve this self-contradictory mess would be to repeal the GRA.

Gender Recognition Act 2004

An Act to make provision for and in connection with change of gender.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2004/7

IwantToRetire · 22/11/2024 21:49

Bennachie · 22/11/2024 21:05

If a GRC changes a person's sex 'for all purposes'

It doesn’t, apart from all the exceptions it also says: 3)Subsection (1) is subject to provision made by this Act or any other enactment or any subordinate legislation.

I think, if memory serves me right, that is a quote from Lady Haldane ruling. And its that, isn't it, that this judicial review is about.

But if I am right in quoting her, and others interpret the law as written, isn't that a further indication that it needs to be clarified.

OP posts:
IwantToRetire · 22/11/2024 21:47

AgathaChristmas · 22/11/2024 20:27

So is the what is the EHRC submission in favour of?

Judges interpret the law, they do not solve the practical problems the law creates.

And the submission seems to say 'we don't like it, but we do think the law says transwomen are women' ??

I think they are saying that as written the law says that someone with a GRC is legally the other sex.

But they are saying that as written it has "practical" problems:

“We believe there are far reaching problems with the practical application of the Equality Act in relation to this definition.

And also undermines the rights of women and same sex attracted people:

“It creates significant inconsistencies, which impair the proper functioning of the Equality Act and jeopardise the rights and interests of women and same-sex attracted people. These difficulties include the challenges faced by those seeking to maintain single sex spaces, and in the rights of same-sex attracted persons to form associations. We think clarity is important to everybody affected by these issues properly understanding and exercising their rights.

If at least the court agrees it is badly worded, and its intent needs clarifying, that will be a step forward.

But not sure the Court can come down either side on the meaning of the word sex in relation to what the law intended.

But maybe they can.

Like a strict teacher saying, no you need to re-write and make it clear.

The problem with that, is with Labour being in power, who knows how they would "tidy it up". Although suspect we know how they will want the law to give rights to trans idendified people.

OP posts:
Bennachie · 22/11/2024 21:05

If a GRC changes a person's sex 'for all purposes'

It doesn’t, apart from all the exceptions it also says: 3)Subsection (1) is subject to provision made by this Act or any other enactment or any subordinate legislation.

AgathaChristmas · 22/11/2024 20:27

So is the what is the EHRC submission in favour of?

Judges interpret the law, they do not solve the practical problems the law creates.

And the submission seems to say 'we don't like it, but we do think the law says transwomen are women' ??

IwantToRetire · 22/11/2024 20:08

LoobiJee · 22/11/2024 19:04

I only skim read this article but I got the impression from it that the reason the GRA was needed has since been dealt with in subsequent legislation on same sex marriage.

https://forwomen.scot/wp-content/uploads/2024/10/Defining-Sex-in-Law-Michael-Foran-27Feb2024.pdf

But I think we all know that this "kind" proposal was in fact intended as a Trojan Horse.

And that not just the act, but trans activism has made it a much wider issue.

And much more about undermining biological women as a protected characteristic.

OP posts:
IwantToRetire · 22/11/2024 20:06

Hoardasurass · 22/11/2024 19:08

Yes the problem is it was drafted by the same Blair/Brown government as the GRA

And the problem is that should as a result of the court case, or anyone bothering to remember the "Government" still has to deal with 2 petitions about this, it will be a Labour Government making the ammedments.

If only Sunak hadn't called his snap election, maybe, just maybe, KB could have put forward something in the HoC that sorted this all out.

But as I said up thread, even if there is legal "clarification" in terms of society and how it behaves, we have so much ground to re claim.

And not much public support.

OP posts:
lcakethereforeIam · 22/11/2024 19:41

Great minds 😁

Mind you it's not rocket surgery.

GargoylesofBeelzebub · 22/11/2024 19:29

lcakethereforeIam · 22/11/2024 18:25

If a GRC changes a person's sex 'for all purposes', why the exemption for hereditary titles and the like.

I mean I know why, because that would have inconvenienced men, but it demonstrates that 'for all purposes' simply isn't true aside from the fact that humans can't actually change sex.

This is what I was going to say too.

duc748 · 22/11/2024 19:24

I only skimmed through it too, @LoobiJee ! 😀And my first thought was, if only our legislators had brought to bear this level of forensic detail!

ResisterOfTwaddleRex · 22/11/2024 19:18

lcakethereforeIam · 22/11/2024 18:25

If a GRC changes a person's sex 'for all purposes', why the exemption for hereditary titles and the like.

I mean I know why, because that would have inconvenienced men, but it demonstrates that 'for all purposes' simply isn't true aside from the fact that humans can't actually change sex.

This question about the carve out for hereditary peers is never ever answered.

Hoardasurass · 22/11/2024 19:08

ThisBluntPlumDreamer · 22/11/2024 18:20

I'm sure you know this, but the Equality Act was passed after the Gender Recognition Act, so the drafters of the Equality Act deserve at least as much of the blame for the current mess.

Yes the problem is it was drafted by the same Blair/Brown government as the GRA

LoobiJee · 22/11/2024 19:04

duc748 · 22/11/2024 18:54

In the vanishingly unlikely future scenario where the UK repealed/substantially modified the GRA (and maybe the EA too?), a prerequisite would be leaving the ECHR, wouldn't it?

I only skim read this article but I got the impression from it that the reason the GRA was needed has since been dealt with in subsequent legislation on same sex marriage.

https://forwomen.scot/wp-content/uploads/2024/10/Defining-Sex-in-Law-Michael-Foran-27Feb2024.pdf

IwantToRetire · 22/11/2024 18:55

I haven’t read the EHRC submission.

As far as I can tell it is the paragraphs I have included in the OP.

ie they say it is clear that when written the intention was that those with a GRC legally became the other sex.

But the add what the problems are, eg single sex spaces, and that therefore it should be clarified.

Which I think put crudely is the basic intent of the JR.

OP posts:
duc748 · 22/11/2024 18:54

In the vanishingly unlikely future scenario where the UK repealed/substantially modified the GRA (and maybe the EA too?), a prerequisite would be leaving the ECHR, wouldn't it?

Swipe left for the next trending thread