Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The Democrats Need an Honest Conversation on Gender Identity Part 2

465 replies

Ingenieur · 18/11/2024 09:33

Starting a new thread in case the first fills up.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
11
Murica · 20/11/2024 14:10

I thought I'd add some perspective from my deep blue state where Harris won comfortably. Not everyone will tell others how they voted even in less controversial elections but of the people who have told me, a few skipped voting for president at all, a few voted third-party, a few for Trump and a few for Harris. All democrats.

Interestingly, now that I think about it, there were definitely fewer yards this year.

Murica · 20/11/2024 13:54

PinkChesnut · 20/11/2024 03:20

The law was written in a vague way (purposefully) so that if you were trans and in a public place where a child could reasonably expect to be (grocery store for instance), and you displayed characteristics of the gender opposing your birth sex, you were "performing sexually."

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2022/11/texas-transgender-ban-drag-shows-criminalize-parents.html

Actually had a friend get targeted by this legislature, he is a gay man who does drag performances clothed neck to toe, there is nothing meant to be fetishist about it more so than a Christmas panto.

Thanks. That's an opinion piece from an activist in Massachusetts though who can be quite hyperbolic. So it's not accurate to say being trans in public is illegal. In the unlikely event that a drag queen would be chosen to sing the national anthem at football game in Texas he might get his feelings hurt.

The author and Rep. Nancy Mace have met. Here's a link for those who may have missed it.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_mB26uArS88

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music that you love, upload original content and share it all with friends, family and the world on YouTube.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_mB26uArS88

HermioneWeasley · 20/11/2024 13:38

PinkChesnut · 20/11/2024 11:37

Biological sex is not a binary. Gender is a social construct. We made it up! We can do whatever we want. We chart all our own paths.

Anti-trans arguments often sound so controlling to me. I caution trans kids that they can't control how others perceive them and that their identity is internal and not determined by how other's see them or address them, and I think gender criticals should remember they can't control how others perceive themselves.

Biological send is as binary as it gets - you are either of the sex that produces small mobile gametes (male) or large immobile gametes (female). Nobody produces medium sized sluggish gametes. If you have a medical condition which means you don’t produce gametes, have had your gamete producing kit removed or are at an age where you don’t produce gametes this does not change your sex.

Shortshriftandlethal · 20/11/2024 13:38

PinkChesnut · 20/11/2024 11:37

Biological sex is not a binary. Gender is a social construct. We made it up! We can do whatever we want. We chart all our own paths.

Anti-trans arguments often sound so controlling to me. I caution trans kids that they can't control how others perceive them and that their identity is internal and not determined by how other's see them or address them, and I think gender criticals should remember they can't control how others perceive themselves.

Sex is binary. This is a fact.

Itv is gender that is socially constructed. 'Gender' simply refers to things stereotypically associated with either sex. Gender is not the exact same thing as sex, though.

'Gender' is simply personality and character. A girl with a 'male gender identity' is simply a girl who likes stereotypical masculine activities such as football, gaming, or who most often is same sex attracted.

You do know that the both the women's and gay liberation movements fought for men and women to express who they were whilst also rejecting the imposition of gender sterotypes onto them?

Gay men are not women just because they like soft furnishings and fashion.
And men are not women just because they are erotically turned on by presenting in female clothing and imagining themselves being penetrated by a man. In fact there are some men with trans identities who say it was pornography that made them 'trans'.

Snowypeaks · 20/11/2024 13:35

Cailleach1 · 20/11/2024 13:28

Material reality doesn’t exist for some people apparently. Join the flat earthers. Mind you, at least they didn’t couch lying to children, using damaging medication, and experimental cosmetic surgery as being a kind person. Or support and push for it to be legal rather than be made the criminal offence it should be.

Material reality doesn’t exist for some people apparently.

It's this weird position of knowing material reality exists, but thinking they can change it by relabelling it. It's a failure to understand the fundamental properties of material reality. That it's real. And material. And therefore immune to alteration by words or philosophical belief.

Shortshriftandlethal · 20/11/2024 13:31

PinkChesnut · 20/11/2024 11:33

I am comfortable referring them to their medical practioner for more information instead of going on Reddit as their sole source of advice.

By the time I am speaking to them, they already know about medical treatments.

Have you ever considered advising them to see a counsellor that is neutral and not gender affirmative? Personally think you are deeply negligent as a responsible adult if you simply go ahead and affirm these delusions that they are really the other sex, or no sex at all.

Cailleach1 · 20/11/2024 13:28

Material reality doesn’t exist for some people apparently. Join the flat earthers. Mind you, at least they didn’t couch lying to children, using damaging medication, and experimental cosmetic surgery as being a kind person. Or support and push for it to be legal rather than be made the criminal offence it should be.

Shortshriftandlethal · 20/11/2024 13:28

PinkChesnut · 20/11/2024 11:30

What they are is already pre-determined from the point of conception: they are human beings and are either male or female

That would be telling them what they are. That's not for me, or anyone, to decide for them.

They already know about medical interventions for transitioning. Telling them to ask their doctor for specifics to them is preferable to them learning it off of friends or the internet.

Is it likely you approached your daughter's gender questioning in a non-abusive or supportive way? Only she would know. I cannot imagine you were this antagonistic with her, so hopefully it was positive for her.

The Cass is an imperfect report which struggles with bias. I have seen plenty of teen girls question their gender, socially transition, and then transition back when it didn't feel authentic to them.

Some things you cannot choose, though.....that's life! The pretence that we can literally be anything we want to be is untrue. We are all born into certain sets of conditions over which we have no choice, and yet we still have to deal with the consequences of these conditions. We are not all equal in the sense that we all have different things to contend with.

Nobody can choose their sex, but what you can choose is how you express yourself. But of course, we also live in a society not as lone individuals. We also have to take into consideration other people, other groups of people and their rights, needs, desires......You cannot just do as you please regardless of everyone else......certainly not without negative consequence anyway.

You are setting a child up for disappointment and even depression if you give them false expectations about what is actually possible. The best thing you can do for a young person struggling with their identity is to help them explore the realms of the possible....also taking into account that we are social creatures and others think and believe differently to us and we will have to adapt to others if we want fruitful relationships.

We all need to adhere to some social norms if we want to live a life approximating contentment and reciprocity with others.

HermioneWeasley · 20/11/2024 13:23

What they are is already pre-determined from the point of conception: they are human beings and are either male or female
That would be telling them what they are. That's not for me, or anyone, to decide for them.

@PinkChesnut

nobody is deciding this for them, it is an immutable fact. People are either male or female, determined at conception and cannot be changed.

why do you think it’s better to lie to people and pretend that’s not true?

RedToothBrush · 20/11/2024 13:22

Ereshkigalangcleg · 20/11/2024 13:20

She's not backing down despite the unhinged loons posting her graphic death threats:

x.com/repnancymace/status/1858974780185341958

I'm not remotely surprised.

She's created a hill.

RedToothBrush · 20/11/2024 13:21

Kucinghitam · 20/11/2024 13:16

Indeed. It's quite instructive to learn what some people consider what the reasonable middle ground consists of, such that they feel it is quite justified for them to scold non-believers for being too extreme and antagonistic. What on earth would they consider the properly Righteous position to be??

TBF I do accept to an extent I agree with Bonfire on different audiences and different approaches.

I think 'middle ground' is a misleading thing in itself tbh.

There is no middle ground between sex being something every has regardless of how they identify and gender identity.

And that's part of the problem.

What are you transing from if you don't recognise sex?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 20/11/2024 13:20

She's not backing down despite the unhinged loons posting her graphic death threats:

x.com/repnancymace/status/1858974780185341958

Cailleach1 · 20/11/2024 13:20

Beowulfa · 20/11/2024 12:53

I wonder if many former Democrat voters have encountered those who describe themselves as "centrist" but who think sex is a spectrum and work with distressed minors, shrugging off irreversible surgery as ok if it lets a child find their authentic self?

Well, they try and frame it as letting the child find their authentic self as a cover for what they are supporting/promoting.

I heard an interesting point about someone wearing garments that had traditional significance for other groups of people. Now people can wear what they want. However, if they think it means they are part of, or connected to, that other group by donning the garb they are really living in a virtual reality. And, the donning of the symbolic traditional garb does not mean they will ever be authentically part of that group.

NecessaryScene · 20/11/2024 13:17

"2" seems to be a bizarrely difficult number for some people to get their heads around.

Somehow they have no problem with their being 1, and exactly 1, human species. There could be more, but there is currently 1.

And like all remotely related species, this 1 species has 2 sexes. There are no other reproductive roles in any mammals.

Why are we disputing the number of sexes we are ("sex isn't binary") while not disputing the number of species we are?

(Indeed, I think a lot of the "sex isn't binary" crowd would be immensely offended by any attempt to suggest there isn't exactly 1 human species. Oddly inconsistent illogical thinking).

It's possible there's some underlying mott & bailey type deeper point from the use of "binary" - I've seen reasonable arguments about sex not being binary.

But even if not "binary", we still have 2 and only 2 sexes.

perseus-and-medusa

A Note on ‘Smashing the Binary’

“All western culture rests on the murder of the mother.” Luce Irigaray As many of us have observed recently, trans ideology – and its associated arguments and rhetoric – is what we might call a ‘sc…

https://janeclarejones.com/2018/10/01/a-note-on-smashing-the-binary/

Kucinghitam · 20/11/2024 13:16

Beowulfa · 20/11/2024 12:53

I wonder if many former Democrat voters have encountered those who describe themselves as "centrist" but who think sex is a spectrum and work with distressed minors, shrugging off irreversible surgery as ok if it lets a child find their authentic self?

Indeed. It's quite instructive to learn what some people consider what the reasonable middle ground consists of, such that they feel it is quite justified for them to scold non-believers for being too extreme and antagonistic. What on earth would they consider the properly Righteous position to be??

Ereshkigalangcleg · 20/11/2024 12:57

I wonder if many former Democrat voters have encountered those who describe themselves as "centrist" but who think sex is a spectrum and work with distressed minors, shrugging off irreversible surgery as ok if it lets a child find their authentic self?

Well, quite.

Beowulfa · 20/11/2024 12:53

I wonder if many former Democrat voters have encountered those who describe themselves as "centrist" but who think sex is a spectrum and work with distressed minors, shrugging off irreversible surgery as ok if it lets a child find their authentic self?

BonfireLady · 20/11/2024 12:50

RedToothBrush · 20/11/2024 12:35

The trouble is that 'middle ground' is felt by many to simply not work with a bunch of people who don't take no for an answer and there are many who feel that the only word that is understood is a firm and blunt 'no'.

That's why we've reached the point that we have with people saying men and make believe.

The point is that we've had years to actually have a middle ground approach and this has been met with screams of genocide and threats of suicide. The inevitable consequence is that there is a desire to merely respond like this is a toddler screaming for attention.

I don't really know where I stand with this on a personal level, but I do think that unless there is a robust putting on the brakes - but whoever is willing to do that - it's going to get even worse regardless.

Yep, I get this.

So far IRL my approach has taken me in to conversations that are helpful for my daughter and others in her situation. Also, it's meant there are people who are able to provide support to me now that I've hit the inevitable wall that I knew I always would.

Whilst my IRL engagement is primarily focused on my daughter at its core, I won't be able to support her properly if I keep it just about her. Hopefully I'll continue to navigate the currently choppy waters successfully. Time will tell but this is far too important for me to stop what I'm doing.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 20/11/2024 12:43

The trouble is that 'middle ground' is felt by many to simply not work with a bunch of people who don't take no for an answer and there are many who feel that the only word that is understood is a firm and blunt 'no'.

That's why we've reached the point that we have with people saying men and make believe.

The point is that we've had years to actually have a middle ground approach and this has been met with screams of genocide and threats of suicide. The inevitable consequence is that there is a desire to merely respond like this is a toddler screaming for attention.

I don't really know where I stand with this on a personal level, but I do think that unless there is a robust putting on the brakes - but whoever is willing to do that - it's going to get even worse regardless.

Yes, I fully agree, and part of that has to be society taking this pseudoscientific belief less seriously and as I said earlier, indulging it and referring to it in hushed tones.

TheKeatingFive · 20/11/2024 12:42

Also great. That's the basis behind my point. That many people hold all sorts of different values as important to them and there is no "right" way to approach this.

The 'right' way is what works best for the needs of society as a whole.

That does not involve making women shields for men.

If men feel threatened in men's spaces and want to campaign for third spaces then sure. Making it a woman's problem is completely unacceptable.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 20/11/2024 12:39

Bonfire I'm simply pointing out that you began this whole discussion by criticising someone else's blunt wording and approach, not by advocating for a variety of different approaches. You've also tried to suggest that you've been saying that all along and it's my misunderstanding which I find a bit disingenuous. We're clearly rubbing each other up the wrong way here, so yes let's draw a line under it.

RedToothBrush · 20/11/2024 12:35

BonfireLady · 20/11/2024 12:09

Yes, but you appear to think your own way of dealing with it is the "nuanced" way, and everyone doing it differently is an extremist

😂🤦‍♀️

No.

Editing to continue, now that I've finished laughing.

In the public debate, which is what we are talking about, I fully support people highlighting the absurdity of gender identity ideology.

So do I, as I have said on multiple occasions. This is just as important as people who discuss it in a more "neutral" way. All of it contributes to the public debate.

I agree that we should stop this conversation now. But I'm not going to let it end on a misrepresentation of what I've been saying.

Edited

The trouble is that 'middle ground' is felt by many to simply not work with a bunch of people who don't take no for an answer and there are many who feel that the only word that is understood is a firm and blunt 'no'.

That's why we've reached the point that we have with people saying men and make believe.

The point is that we've had years to actually have a middle ground approach and this has been met with screams of genocide and threats of suicide. The inevitable consequence is that there is a desire to merely respond like this is a toddler screaming for attention.

I don't really know where I stand with this on a personal level, but I do think that unless there is a robust putting on the brakes - but whoever is willing to do that - it's going to get even worse regardless.

IdylicDay · 20/11/2024 12:32

PinkChesnut · 20/11/2024 11:37

Biological sex is not a binary. Gender is a social construct. We made it up! We can do whatever we want. We chart all our own paths.

Anti-trans arguments often sound so controlling to me. I caution trans kids that they can't control how others perceive them and that their identity is internal and not determined by how other's see them or address them, and I think gender criticals should remember they can't control how others perceive themselves.

Biological sex ABSOLUTELY IS a binary. Anti-women arguments are usually flat-earther science denier pseudoscience. There is not one single Biologist that will say biological sex is not binary. It is the one thing, in fact, that is binary and immutable.

RedToothBrush · 20/11/2024 12:30

PinkChesnut · 20/11/2024 11:38

Truly I wish only the best for you and your kid and I hope you met her with empathy and she receieved the support from you she needed.

She being the point....

RedToothBrush · 20/11/2024 12:29

Kucinghitam · 20/11/2024 08:44

Goodness, have we gone back in a time machine to 2016?

It does feel a lot like the aftermath of Brexit doesn't it?