The Democrats Need an Honest Conversation on Gender Identity Part 2

Brilliant! 👏

The update on the Capitol toilets is fascinating.

Turns out there are private toilets for every Congress Member in addition to unisex facilities which are being maintained.

Its just the single sex ones are being made single sex.

And this has prompted the obligatory selfie in the ladies and the 'pee in peace' crap. Which could be done quite happily in peace the unisex or private toilet...

But no. We have a Hampsted Pools scenario going on.

oh wow!!!

Round of applause for Rep. Nancy Mace who has indeed now got males banned from using women's facilities in the Capitol!

That was brilliant especially when some woke dude said 'are you a biologist?' (I mean everyone's seen Thomas right, he's huge and obviously male) and KJK said "I'm not a vet but I know what a dog is" 😂

In the same way that Riley Gaines said she was inspired by Kellie-Jay Keen. It was at the swim meet where Gaines was competing against Lia Thomas and KJK shouted, “He’s a man!”

It comes to something when people don't think it's daft to suggest sex isn't binary.

The poster did attempt a rather clumsy elision of sex and gender, which may reflect her or his beliefs, or simply be an argumentative device.

Whichever it is, it’s still daft.

It comes to something when people don't think it's daft to suggest sex isn't binary.

But here we are.

'Open minded' these days seems to mean 'brains fell out'.

Biological sex is not a binary

Don’t be daft.

Sex in humans is a very good, real life, reproductively necessary example of an actual binary.

It literally means one thing or the other, in this case M or F.

Biological sex is not a binary

Yes it is. This is the factual science bit. As with many things in science, we learn more about it all the time, which is why "intersex" is an outdated term. Thanks to better scientific understanding, we now know that every DSD is sex-specific. Many will be spotted visually (as looking unusual) at birth and then verified by testing. One that is likely to keep being missed at birth is 5-ARD, because the genitals don't grow as they should have done until puberty. Exterior genitals are the last part of the body to grow in the reproductive system, so until puberty any boy with this DSD will have "default" looking genitals because the growth process was interrupted. In other words, they'll look like a girl.
This is a sensitively written article which focuses on this DSD:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-34290981

Unfortunately, until the public fully understands that this DSD only affects boys and that they have a standard male puberty, we'll probably keep seeing more boxers and 800m runners with it successfully entering the women's events.

Gender is a social construct. We made it up! We can do whatever we want. We chart all our own paths.

Agreed. Obviously ideally children and vulnerable young people don't get confused about the difference between the social construct of gender (identity) and the biological reality of sex when trying to figure themselves out. Pushing against cultural expectations and limitations is difficult enough without having to think about body modification as well.

I caution trans kids that they can't control how others perceive them and that their identity is internal and not determined by how other's see them or address them

This sounds like good advice for gender questioning children. Hopefully they will listen to this and feel less distressed if people don't use their preferred pronouns. Identity in this sense is an understanding of who you are in amongst the rest of the world e.g. how you fit. Everyone goes through a journey on this throughout their lives, but most intensively during puberty.

I think gender criticals should remember they can't control how others perceive themselves.

Well, yes. I've been misunderstood on this thread, despite my best efforts to explain what I meant. But then the same advice applies to everyone.

💐💐💐💐💪💪💪💪

Am so proud of her, and relieved that holding the line by discussing science, social sciences, women’s place in history, how to critically assess research and those that wrote it, was not ’transphobic’ at all but the sane and rational path to allow her to work out the truth.

It sounds like you can be proud of yourself too 💐

While we're talking about plain language, I hope the "uses she/her pronouns" can stop now. No! Sarah Mcbride and everyone else with a gender identity want us to use female or male pronouns when talking about them. This is nothing new but let's call it what it is.

That's such an interesting point. For all the rhetoric (genocide/denying existences 🙄), ultimately this comes down to nothing more than 'manners'.

Obviously I don't accept it is good manners to lie about someone's sex, but that's the only solid ground that it can be pinned to.

Ultimately they're mad that people won't just accept their world view unquestioningly. But why would anyone do that? 🫠

If only any of these people who tell me I have to use language as they understand it, not as I understand it, could explain to me why their worldview is correct - but they can't or won't. Half of them refuse even to try. They just criticise my manners, and at the same time make out that it's far more serious than manners, and that I am not accepting them.

Yup. Dishonest and disingenuous to its core, this genderist movement.

Those who have been harmed and recognised they have been harmed by this nonsense that men can be women and vice versa - which very much includes those most caught up in the grips of this ideology - will in time become its biggest critics.

They will ask were those who were supposed to safeguard them were.

Those who have felt compiled to go along with it as teens who lack the power of reply will backlash harder than those who pushed the ideology in the first place.

This is not a prediction. This is an obversation based on historical precidence.

I encourage this post being requoted in a few years time. It will stand up against the movement of time. I am that confident in it.

Yes! I noticed that she called herself a conservative feminist, also pleasantly surprised.
But I was sad and angry on her behalf that she felt she had to disclose previous SA to justify her position on males in women's facilities.

Some people are framing Mace as being unnecessarily impolite but I’m of the opinion that we can’t have a sensible discussion about the issues of men in women’s spaces without referring to them as men. If the discussions cedes to employing genderist language we lose the effectiveness of our argument because we’d be saying something incoherent like, ‘that woman doesn’t belong in women’s spaces because she is male’, which undercuts the facts and impact of the situation.

Yes. Her bravery and plain speaking gives others permission to speak up/challenge/question even when they choose not to be blunt themselves.

I take heart that young people, even devout former believers in the born in the wrong body ideology, are seeing through this lie and understanding that biological truth is immutable. As some here know, my own DD was one of them but has seemingly socially de-transitioned (no male pronouns although still dresses in a gender non-conforming way). She [and, my God, does it feel good to use that pronoun after 7 years knowing that I am not imposing it upon her against her will or contravening her beliefs] has just come home from college and a sociology lesson discussing feminism with an ethnically diverse group of young people aged 19-25 and announced that she was the most feminist person in the room. Am so proud of her, and relieved that holding the line by discussing science, social sciences, women’s place in history, how to critically assess research and those that wrote it, was not ’transphobic’ at all but the sane and rational path to allow her to work out the truth.

I think the more legislatures like that in Texas make these changes; the more public discourse there is on the subject - especially now we have passed out of the ‘no debate’ era; and the more stories of de-transitioners and those who have died and/or suffered as a result of affirming medical care come to light; then the more likely it is that the Dems will be forced to step up. They cannot do anything but acknowledge with the ‘benefit of new understandings’ (ie realising that they were wrong) that the balance of women's and girls’ rights needs redressing and children need safeguarding not steering into irreversible surgeries. There will be huge legal claims from the victims of these policies in future years and the Dems will have to own their part in facilitating it all. [Very garbled para, but hopefully clearer than mud!]

No, that's blaming someone for someone else's worldview.

Some people are framing Mace as being unnecessarily impolite but I’m of the opinion that we can’t have a sensible discussion about the issues of men in women’s spaces without referring to them as men. If the discussions cedes to employing genderist language we lose the effectiveness of our argument because we’d be saying something incoherent like, ‘that woman doesn’t belong in women’s spaces because she is male’, which undercuts the facts and impact of the situation.

I know some people dislike plain speaking because they see it as rude but in this case I think it is using the term ‘male’ as a form of clarification rather than rudeness. McBride is playing the ‘Be Kind’ card for all it’s worth (but doesn’t have any other substantial argument for being granted access to women’s spaces) and because society is not in favour of plain-speaking women the interaction between these two points of view is causing ripples of sexism towards Mace as well as subsequent attempts to police her speech and behaviour to force her to be what they perceive to be as kind (and womanly) - which is in effect to give McBride everything McBrides asks for.

One thing I’m quite interested in is Mace’s declarations that she is a feminist and that is not something that Right-leaning women in politics have been traditionally fond of saying. I find it encouraging that Right-leaning women see themselves as having the power (and inclination) to protect other women and girls, they may not always choose to do it in a way I would agree with but I’m glad to see them wanting to be part of the larger feminist movement and discussion.

My experience is one of coercion. I must do as I am told, or I am a bigot and must be shunned. I don't respond well to people trying to control me.

If only any of these people who tell me I have to use language as they understand it, not as I understand it, could explain to me why their worldview is correct - but they can't or won't. Half of them refuse even to try. They just criticise my manners, and at the same time make out that it's far more serious than manners, and that I am not accepting them. If accepting someone means that I cannot refer to their sex, I question their grip on normality.

In return, I am told to fuck off, that I am vile, that their generation is righteous and that mine is outdated and we have progressed from the days when small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri were small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri. Ageist incoherent claptrap from the self righteous.

Blunt language time.

Being sterilised and having cosmetic surgery does not change your sex.

You remain the sex you were born, regardless of any decisions you make in your life.

Biology isn't something you get a choice in.

Sue biology for unfair and see how far you get.

And no I don't think I should dress this up in terms that are a middle ground. Not when this kid was 6 when it started.

I know a 10 year old boy who has been told he can be a boy.

Everyone is being super 'nice' about it and saying how nice the parents are.

It does my head in because the girls in the class know he's a boy and we really upset by The Talk about periods last year where he was included (fuck knows why) and felt they couldn't speak. None of the parents felt they could complain (including the Muslim parents).

And what's going to happen in a couple of years time when hormones kick in? Reality that he's been sold a total lie by people being nice and he thought he could trust.

The alternative is invasive surgery on his genitals and hormones which will make his genitals shrink and require many 'genital inspections' along the road by medical professionals.

Only for him to find out he's STILL not female.

It's disgusting. It's not tolerate. It's just weak arsed parenting and care from trusted professionals who can't be honest about the fucking reality of the situation.

He has been set up for life for a fall at some point from the age of six by adults who refuse to tell the truth in the name of 'being kind' .

None of this is kind. At six he has no comprehension about any of the implications.

I think those who have enabled it - which includes friends are culpable. It's grotesque.

The author and Rep. Nancy Mace have met. Here's a link for those who may have missed it.

Of course! She was fantastic then. And what she says about threats she's received underlines her bravery here.