Is it too early for a post mortem?

I remember.

And also, what is the NHS providing treatment for now exactly? Because we are told by the transgender spokespeople and groups that there is no medical condition associated with being transgender.

There really seems to be many inconsistencies here that are never explained coherently.

I'm afraid i lost most of my sympathy for people waiting for their gender affirmation surgeries when they started whining that women having reconstruction work after mastectomies for cancer treatment were being prioritised over trans women wanting new boobs on the NHS

Women are supposed to immediately acquiesce to appeals to emotion ("Be Kind").

My mother, who is a musician and has spent her career working to enrich the lives of local children, is currently partially deaf and is waiting on a referral for treatment that will take a year for a first appointment. It's massively impacting her quality of life and is absolutely ridiculous that she has to wait so long for something so trivial.

Prior to it being shut down, children waiting for a first appointment at the Tavi would have had to be referred at the age of 13 to have been able to be seen once before they aged out.

The waiting list for the adult GIC is six years for first appointment.

You can finish school, go to university, complete a Masters degree and be halfway through a PhD before you have your first 'hello I would like to talk about how sad I am that I've spent my entire adult life waiting to talk to you please' appointment.

The waiting list for surgery is approximately equivalent to a life sentence in prison.

The NHS is fucked. The suffering is the point. The Tories have been massacring it for years; Streeting is finishing the job.

Meh. Women know a lot about coercive control, emotional manipulation, "Do as I say or I'll....." (select threats as appropriate).

We are concerned for our gaslit children (especially girls) who've been subject to manipulation and flat earthism from adults and groups who should be nowhere near children. We're concerned about women and girls without the resources and back up to say no to abusers. We're concerned about the hard working nurses being forced to undress in front of a man who claims to be women. We're concerned about lesbians being compelled to accept males in their dating pool. We challenge the reduction of women in pregnancy, birth and breastfeeding to body parts with the serial removal of the language of women, our rights to privacy, dignity and safety from men. All in the name of "trans demands".

Our concerns are outward facing - speaking out about the deliberate undermining of family relationships by those seeking to undermine children's relationships with their families and the social contract. Concern and care for others evident in so many posts.

Compare and contrast with the self absorbed posts demanding "me me me.." I want this. I expect that, I need this" . The difference is so stark.

Operation Let Them Speak working beautifully yet again

Indeed. It seems that a male person should be celebrated for showing 'compassion' to the male people that felt uncomfortable, while the very real harm experienced by female people by this individual's action that adds to the collective harm, is completely dismissed with demands for humanity and compassion from the female people.

You really cannot make this up.

Nah... we point out that your posts are hyperbolic because they use hyperbolic language.

You are manipulative because your posts draw on manipulative tactics. You might not be aware of this, but they most certainly do this.

You haven't asked for 'reciprocal compassion' at all. You have told women that we should show you and others compassion while declaring that you are not ever going to stop using female single sex provisions.

"That's all there is. There is no sanity; no reason; no humanity in this.
Callous indifference is not a virtue; empathy is not sinful weakness."

And this is a great example of what we are pointing out - the hyperbole, the hypocrisy, the emotional manipulation. It is all right there in those sentences.

Trans people are subject to the same parameters of treatment on the NHS as every other person in the UK.

If I speak of consequences I'm being hyperbolic.

You dismiss out of hand the consequences of GI on women.

If I draw upon my own experiences to demonstrate this is not just abstract hyperbole I'm being self-absorbed.

You dismiss out of hand the experiences of women.

There is certainly no humanity shown for women.

What “reciprocal” compassion would that be, @ButterflyHatched ?
You stopped using the men’s facilities when the men appeared to be uncomfortable, and inserted yourself into the women’s; where women’s discomfort caused you not a jot of angst because it worked better for you.
You absolutely are entitled, there isn’t a moment’s thought for anyone besides yourself in all your verbose ramblings.

That you feel it's appropriate to deny these very real and pressing daily realities says a lot about you as a person and how little awareness you have of the suffering of others.

That you feel it's appropriate to do so in such an insultingly dismissive way that would generate pages upon pages of furious chastisement and claims that I was exhibiting selfish male entitlement were I to use the exact same words back, demonstrates how fucked this entire dynamic is.

If I speak of consequences I'm being hyperbolic.

If I draw upon my own experiences to demonstrate this is not just abstract hyperbole I'm being self-absorbed.

If I present the real human cost of callous indifference then I'm being manipulative.

If I ask for reciprocal compassion then I'm being entitled.

That's all there is. There is no sanity; no reason; no humanity in this.

Callous indifference is not a virtue; empathy is not sinful weakness.

Ah my post has gone, obviously touched a nerve.

It isn't, which is part of the point. It doesn't matter who breaks the seal; once it is broken then our society becomes one where coercion (either on the part of the state itself or via social pressure) toward Assisted Dying is on the table.

This government is already failing to hold itself to a moral standard with existing institutions and provisions that ostensibly exist to save lives and improve the quality of living. What possible reason is there to believe that the next government - which I can pretty confidently say won't even be pretending to try - will have any incentive not to reach for the obvious shortest path?

Butterfly, why is it that when you perceived men’s discomfort at your being in their space (where you have every right to be) you felt inclined to remove yourself, but when you are told women are uncomfortable with your being in their space (where you have no right to be) you still persist?

Why do you believe women’s feelings matter less than men’s?

But Alison, medical treatment for a philosophical belief (because remember there is no medical issue now as per transgender people including those who are academics current position) trumps the need for your mother to walk or any other person's need for treatment for a medical condition.

Based on what those current transgender spokespeople have stated, what medical treatment do they desperately need? Or is there so much inconsistency as to make the issues impenetrable as possible so that a sub group of people get what they demand despite not having a medical condition to be treated. Because making a body 'fit' the person's personal philosophical belief doesn't sound quite like what that group intended their campaigning to achieve, but it is the outcome none the less.

My mother who worked for the NHS for 20 years, needs a new knee, and is having to pay for it out of her savings.

Otherwise she won't be able to walk.

Talk about being on the edge of despair.

NHS is currently doing seemingly everything it can to deny trans people access to treatment, deprive them of dignity and drive them to the edge of despair

Hyperbole much?

Please go and get a hobby, or a dog. I find it's better for my own mental health than pointless introspection.

It is all just another layer of deception and wheedling isn't it. It is not unique at all though. We have seen it as a regular occurrence. I mean, we are told that there are many many of these male people who have stated that they have not and will not use female single sex spaces, but they don't speak out because ?? I have not worked out quite why, I suspect I know though.

But it really does seem to follow a type of script:

If I don't use the words that you need to describe your sexed body as being completely unique to the opposite sex, will that be enough to let me continue to use your spaces that I want / desperately need to / demand to use. It is not uncommon either to see the reason to be because when I last used the male spaces, I was soooooo uncomfortable and so were the other male people there. They were uncomfortable too. Therefore, I need to use the spaces that "I" want to use. so.... if I stop using your words can you stop saying no / stating material reality / being [mean] (insert various words, we all know them).

Brianna Wu has highlighted this very well on twitter as we keep pointing out on many threads. But there is a very long list of them.

No male people who fully respects female people's needs should be accessing female people's single sex spaces. We have been there and done that with the 'just let a few in'. It didn't work and it should never have been considered acceptable.

The house of commons has just voted in favour of legalising assisted dying, ostensibly from a position of compassion. I have seen no evidence whatsoever that our NHS - which is currently doing seemingly everything it can to deny trans people access to treatment, deprive them of dignity and drive them to the edge of despair - has any reason not to pursue a Canada-style route of referring desperate people for state-sanctioned termination as a cost-effective alternative to expensive treatment that they'll have to wait decades to access.

If that doesn't scare you - or even give you the briefest pause for thought - then I invite you to read up on your history and consider what that legislation is likely to become under a future hard-right Reform-flavoured Britain egged on by Trump and Musk from across the Atlantic and facing increasing economic pressure and social polarisation.

Bizarre. For all the faults of the right wing, this legislation isn't a right wing project.

If I was to no longer refer to myself as a woman, would it actually make an iota of difference?

I am completely indifferent to what you call yourself. You can refer to yourself however you want, I am never going to see any male as a woman and most people agree, whether they are honest about it or not.

The Guardian is at it again:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/dec/01/there-are-cracks-in-the-feminist-movement-but-i-have-faith-in-women-to-stand-up-to-trump

In Britain, arguments quickly erupted in 2017 over whether the Women’s March was either too exclusive of trans women – since those pink hats might be “excluding trans women” – or, on the contrary, too eager to centre them. Since then, winning arguments on gender identity seems to be more important to some feminists than finding common ground.

...... international feminist solidarity has weakened on other fronts too......

(emphasis added)

Walter usually seems sensible, but this passage seems to imply that feminist solidarity requires the eschewal of TERFism.

(Amusingly, the link provided within this passage to TERF country, takes one straight to Mumsnet. The contrary argument is exemplified with this atrocity:

https://thebeaverlse.co.uk/lse-societies-fail-organise-womens-march/

The posts over this last section of this thread are only important in that they have been a live demonstration of the rhetorical devices and the tactics used by male people who have decided that female people should accept that male person’s version of reality as being universal.

And that is what is happening.

Because if any male uses a female sexed based provision, they have demanded that all people requiring that provision comply with that male person’s philosophical belief. It does not just impact the belief relating to that individual, it changes forcibly the universal belief about the group of people who need that sex based provision.

It is not hostile, or hateful, or incompassionate to point this out despite the overblown emoting that those male people then indulge in.

Because remember, the compassion is one directional when any male person is accepted a being a female person. It is only going towards the male person.

When the compassion should have always been towards the female people needing and using those provisions. If a male person needs compassion, it shouldn’t and should never have come at the expense of those female people. That is the underlying misogyny of those decisions made by those male people, whether they intended to be misogynistic or not.

Hilariously, this is mumsnet. Full to the brim of people who deal with these emotionally manipulative and emotionally laden antics every day.

Whenever i hear that women are now self-excluding (from toilets, gyms, sex-abuse survivor groups etc etc)

I want to scream. I want Butters to wake the fuck up and see that it's not a tiny number of mentally not-entirely-healthy people being exiled from public life: It is a lot of women.

Women, by the way (predominently afaik women from cultures that like to oppress women anyway, with whom outreach groups have worked FOR YEARS to allow the women to attend, say, OB/GYN appointments, get medical care, mother and baby groups etc etc) are now seeing those women, whose outside the home lives were precarious and based on the whim of some male relative or other, are now hugely restricted.

I am not desperate to hold onto a ‘model’ of reality. I am however someone who believes in reality and that someone’s philosophical theories don’t change reality materially.

This is important for several reasons.

Just one is the material reality is that male people are the perpetrators of 96-98% or higher is sex related crimes consistently across time and many countries.

Just as importantly, a human does not change sex. No matter how desperately someone wants to change sex, no matter how many linguistic fuckwittery tactics or again, philosophical theories, are used, sex is abiding.

Just as importantly, female people need spaces segregated from all male people over about 8 years old.

It is just more hyperbole and emotive to try to position this as treating male people as if they are ‘different species’. Not different species. Simply different sexes.

What compassion needs to obfuscate the reality of people’s sexed bodies?

Oh… right. The compassion YOU demand and expect yet cannot actively give to the people your own actions harm.

I don’t think anyone reading your posts is left in doubt that your talk of compassion is only about the compassion you want and never about you giving any. That is why you cannot answer the questions about what sacrifices you have made.

“Nor does it acknowledge the experiential aspect of what we're discussing.”

What experiential aspect? Of you being a male who claims to be a woman? Sure, you certainly are a male who claims to be a woman. It doesn’t make you a woman though.

You don’t have any experience of being a female person whether that is as a ‘woman’ or a ‘girl’. Yet you have claimed both and that can only ever be a falsehood.

Hostility eh? Stating that you are male and that you use cognitive distortions to prop up your very weak statements is not hostile. That is just more cognitive distortion. It is me disagreeing with you though. And that isn’t hostility either.

If you don’t want posters to interact with your posts, I think you have the wrong idea as to how a public discussion forum works.