Teacher struck for posting online 'Where I teach the trans kids are untouchable'

There is no science that suggests “gender identity” exists or that “gender” is something internal a person experiences, rather than an externally imposed societal expectation around how men and women are supposed to act or be.

Scientists who have accepted the internalized experience model without proof are no different from those who believe in any other religious or neo-religious concepts.

This causes no end of frustration to those of us who are non-believers, or transphobes, as you’d probably call us. Transphobe is now widely used to mean heretic.

no way I’m clicking on a Daily Nail link, but from the excerpts quoted by others it sounds as if she was grossly unprofessional and inappropriate on social media. Not surprising at all that she was sacked.

Exactly. But will there be an answer? It could be a long wait, as it always seems to be.

At some point, people who see gender and sex as the same and those who see them as different may simply need to agree to disagree

Is there anyone who sees gender (identity) and sex as the same? I'm not aware that there is.

There are genderists (those who believe we have a gender identity) who say that these things are different. There are also feminists and others (who challenge sex-based expectations and limitations) who say that these things are different.

The main difference between the two groups, as far as I can see, is that the first says that you can alter your body to match how you feel. The second says you can alter (challenge) the stereotypes themselves.

If gender ideologues perceive sex and gender as distinct categories why do we see the constant push for the blurring of sex and gender in policy and law. Why the need to have your sex marker changed on a birth certificate? Why so concerned about the term "sex" in the Equality Act being clarified to mean actual sex rather than sex via the legal fiction of a GRC? Why do so many TRAs claim that TW are AHF?

I also don't believe sociology is a science. A sometimes interesting area of academic study, speculation and theorising, sure, but not a science.

Which I find baffling, as I don't believe in gender, a disbelief I am legally entitled to

While you personally 'disbelieve' in gender as a meaningful concept, scientific and sociological research generally recognise gender as distinct from biological sex.
At some point, people who see gender and sex as the same and those who see them as different may simply need to agree to disagree

None of the genderists challenge gender norms, they are obsessed with upholding, even enforcing them. They might choose to adopt the gender norm associated with the sex they are not, but they do not challenge the norms at all, quite the contrary.

Which I find baffling, as I don't believe in gender, a disbelief I am legally entitled to.

I do think it is a waste if young people, at a time when their brains are quite plastic and able to absorb a lot of information, don't put that to good use acquiring a wide range of knowledge and skills rather than wasting it on introspection and ego-tickling. Parents who encourage them to concentrate on their academic work are being kind and responsible.

I think you have not followed the conversation of the impact to those around gender questioning children and the fact that you actually can't change sex no matter how much you want.

And the entire contents of the Cass Report which state that many trans identifying children are leaning into the ideology because of a whole range of issues - which don't remotely make them trans.

But yes, it's easy to smear MN as 'not understanding the issues' as if we are totally clueless and haven't been up close and know these kids. Because simple tropes are easier to follow than actually participate in a conversation about this subject and understand how politics works.

Some of us, are shock horror, not stupid or uneducated.

It is clear that there is a lot of skepticism here toward trans ideology. People who use expressions like "genderism" and "proto-activism" imply that discussions around gender identity are less serious or legitimate than other forms of activism, which shows a lack of respect for transgender individuals and their experiences.

The most recent posters emphasize academic achievement and traditional values at the expense of addressing the needs and rights of transgender students.
Is it really fair and logical to claim that challenging traditional gender norms somehow detracts from educational priorities?

The suggestion that trans ideology is irrelevant to UK minorities, along with the critique of “guilt politics, comes across as dismissive of the struggles that transgender individuals fact. It seems unfair and suggest a lack of empathy to invalidate their experiences and the stigma they encounter.

Great post.

Unfortunately there are still a whole pile of parents I know who simply don't get that its not just about mobile phones but also the likes of youtube and gaming - they are fixated about the mobile phones and rather miss the point of just where the internet and social media communication exists and all their kids already have tablets which are not well monitored.

I have been tentatively commenting to this effect in the mobile phone conversations online with parents in school groups. Nothing has gained any traction yet.

Photo of a book in my "to read" pile ⬇️.... It might get moved to the top now! I'm currently reading Identity Crisis by Ben Elton (inspired by other threads) so maybe this one is next.

I agree with a lot of that re: extra curricular stuff. And I think that there is a growing backlash against internet access full stop amongst parents. But this group are particularly strict so I think that will also start to filter through over the next few years. There is much more push back happening (especially since Briana Ghey somewhat ironically) more broadly. Unfortunately there are still a whole pile of parents I know who simply don't get that its not just about mobile phones but also the likes of youtube and gaming - they are fixated about the mobile phones and rather miss the point of just where the internet and social media communication exists and all their kids already have tablets which are not well monitored.

The other thing I find fascinating is that one of the issues with The Americanised Hierachy Of Oppression Theory, which transideology is very much part of, is that is really doesn't apply and have the same type of traction with uk based minorities. They aren't so much at the mercy of guilt politics and the US stuff has little to no relevance to their backgrounds.

And whilst you say about those most likely to be vulnerable being at less prestigious schools, these schools that are promoting these messages are really important in terms of creating the next wave of professionals that manage society. If the politics of guilt become less of a force thats interesting in its own right. I caution this by also saying about some cultures being more adverse to confrontations too (with particular reference to HK chinese), so whilst they might not necessarily like whats being said that doesn't necessarily mean they will challenge it either - because of leanings towards conformity.

By the same token, its fascinating to see that the British have lead the way in challenging genderism - we culturally have a profile which is more excepting of non-conformity anyway and we are habitually the awkward squad. Scandinavian cultures have tended to lean to nice and being kind as a rule, but are starting to have fall out from this not working in various ways as a society when faced with meeting different cultural attitudes to rules and rulebreaking. I highly recommend 'The Culture Map: Decoding How People Think, Lead, and Get Things Done Across Cultures' by Erin Meyer about dealing with different international cultures in business as giving a good understanding of these principles and why the matter and why we should really be talking about this outside stereotypes of racism. We have a variety of 'social cultures' WITHIN the uk and our regional/class system which aren't doing a good job of talking to each other and understanding each other which a lot of this applies equally too - which we know are being considered heavily for politics, but there still seems to be a queasiness about talking about it in terms of immigration even though we know that attititudes to work and education are connected to the ethos of immigration (why do you even decide to move to the UK in the first place) and these are cross generational.

I digress a lot here from the topic, but I think there's a lot here in terms of the longevity to genderism and resistance/promotion of genderism which going forward is useful to know and understand in terms of where the politics will head next. Labour already has an issue with Palestine / Israel and its Muslim voter base. Push too heavily on trans stuff and they will get push back from the same quarters. We are starting to see the emergence of politics based along this and I can only see this increasing with more educated people in positions of influence being from less white backgrounds. How that develops over the next 10 years or so, I think is liable to be one of the emerging trends. Independent type candidates across the board are on the rise due to disillusionment with the main parties and a feeling of top down imposed power versus proper grass roots activism (by that I don't mean numpties with grasshoppers).

Labour should read the room here - a lot more than they are.

@RedToothBrush yep, all of your comment (not quoted for brevity reasons).

Putting immigration to one side for a minute IME the families who are currently making the most effort to get their children into the more prestigious of the greater Manchester grammars/independents are extremely academically focussed and do not want their children distracted by extra curricular stuff unless they are the specific extra curriculars that augment academic success (eg chess or playing an instrument).

Those families do not want their children’s schools fannying about with proto activism, whether it be environmental or rainbow-themed. They have high expectations of their children and don’t easily fit into the imported US Intersectional narrative, so the Tumblrisation of Education fails to gain any purchase.

Of course, the most vulnerable of gender distressed kids (those in the foster care system and/or growing up in poverty) are extremely unlikely to to be in the fanciest grammars (the local FtM teen who died by suicide in an adolescent psychiatric unit went to the one truly terrible school in the whole of the borough).

Red, If you ever fancy meeting up for a coffee and an animated chat re: trans ideology and/or Trafford schools, send me a message!

Don't argue with these people, these are clearly the ones who financially support the worst of the worst humanity has to offer over on the Chris Chan Wiki farms.

It wasn't Alty Grammar. Though I have heard that about it too.

I've heard a lot about the massive demographic shift affecting Alty Boys (I have a boy) too, so I'm not surprised to hear similar for the girls tbh. Apparently it's very cliquey along race lines and the kids don't mix well, partly due to language differences and partly due to parenting style as well as other cultural issues and I've heard it's causing its a range of different problems. It can't be blamed on immigration either imho - it's very much a domestic related issue too for various reasons.

The trans stuff certainly not going to help these cross cultural friendship patterns. I can imagine white middle class pro-trans liberal families very much being at odds with what's going on and there being a significant battle going on to try and enforce gender ideology against a rising tide of resistance.

Having said that, I don't think it's restricted to the Alty Grammars by any means. I do think that the snobbery and racism is being particularly noted with the two Alty schools as there's resentment that particularly well off white kids who, just a couple of years ago would have easily got in, just aren't. It was taken for granted that they'd get a space. And these parents are vocal.

The level of competition has simply shot up and the entry requirements have gone up considerably and it's difficult to really explain this adequately if you aren't familiar with the area.

For those who aren't: The whole school system in Trafford is creaking under this wave of immigration from Hong Kong and a spike in the birth rate. There's a complete lack of spaces everywhere. Primaries and secondaries and private, comp and grammar. Trafford was actively marketed in Hong Kong as the best place to relocate - for cost and quality of living and having the best schools - and the majority of the HK migration have aimed for the area as a result. I know Hong Kong brokers were buying housing unseen at silly prices at one point a couple of years ago (though it has since settled). It would be more of a shock if this wasn't affecting Alty Grammar considerably tbh. My experience of HK parents has been that they have been exceptionally pushy in terms of educational expectations. (This isn't necessarily a bad thing - I'd argue a lot of the other parents in my son's year group have a terrible attitude. Some comments in my WhatsApp group have genuinely shocked me).

It's also affecting Cheshire East and Warrington -partly cos there's a massive overspill due to lack of Trafford spaces and kids not making the Grammar school grade and partly due to house prices in Trafford and parents trying to still get into the grammars/private schools from our of catchment. I know of kids going to 'lesser primary schools' (which aren't bad schools by any stretch of the imagination) whilst parents desperately hope to get a space elsewhere at a more desirable school via waiting lists.

It's a complicated mix of factors going on. But yes I do think it will have an impact on how favourably being trans is seen and treated by kids and staff.

Basically the school proved the teacher right. Trans ARE untouchable. If you're trans, its a free for all, no one else has any rights, only trans. Where was the respect for the teacher's beliefs?

nm

This isn’t the girls’ school in Manchester that has been forced to admit a male pupil, but there is one. Or there was a few years ago, I’d guess that there are several now. I’ve heard parents of girls at all the highest rated single sex schools say that gender identity issues are absolutely rife.

Children aren’t allowed to change surname unless all parties with parental responsibility agree. A teacher’s opinion is neither here nor there because it’s written into law.

Yet some schools have changed children’s first names on school records without even informing the parents, who inevitably find out at parents evening when a teacher is blithely using an unrecognised name or when the parent signs in to top up a dinner money account.

(FWIW IMO the tweeting about a pupil using recognisable info was and is totally unacceptable but if schools hadn’t spent 10 years following Stonewall ‘Law’ and the government had enough balls to issue statutory guidance there would be no need for teachers to tweet about any of this anyway!)

Personally I have no problem calling adults by a name typically associated with the opposite sex because it doesn’t mean anything (eg Alice Cooper and Marilyn Manson) but teenagers who name themselves after objects or anime characters are unlikely to benefit from having their fashion fads facilitated by the school.

In my 80s high school there was a brief fashion for changing the spelling of one’s name - sticking a Y in the middle of Jane or adding an extra L to Nicola.

In hindsight it was a bit of a tragedeigh.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

No, but by punishing the lesser crime and not the greater, you allow the greater crime to continue unchecked. II think all the teachers, and particularly the head, who engaged in this appalling ideological manipulation of children should be sacked, and some should be in prison.

Altrincham Grammar for Girls was so riddled with it a few years back that they actually told the staff to stop referring to the class collectively as ‘girls’! That was one of my first ‘hold on a minute, why are there suddenly so many teen girls coming out as trans?’ moments.

I hear from a current Alty Girls pupil that there has been a massive demographic shift and the majority of the girls in the lower school are now of SE Asian and E Asian heritage, which may well mean a lot less focus on Tumblr style Identity politics!

I think we all know how to google...

This is a false equivalency. Corporate bullshit (eg. cynically exploited statistics; empty rhetoric; manipulative marketing) is NOT the same as a systematic denial of the sex binary in humans.

I'd struggle with the corporate bullshit - indeed, I've fought similar in my own workplaces, to my own limited ability.

But my frustration with even the very worst of that pales into insignificance with being pressured to use language that implicitly - explicitly, even - seeks to deny

1. physical reality

2. that women are materially definable as a class of human being […] women (as adult female humans) are culturally, legislatively and politically important, with their own sets of needs, rights and concerns […] women have a right to meet and discuss freely that which affects their lives profoundly. (Victoria Smith)

and

3. that social transition "is not a neutral act, and better information is needed about outcomes" (Cass Interim Review)

This isn't just asking me to compromise my ethical values in a limited professional context in the service of big business. It's demanding that I support a wholesale restructuring of society that I believe is making women and children less safe (safe, that is, in the old-fashioned, physical, sense - as well as the more recent "emotional" application).

NB. None of this is to comment on, or defend, the teacher in question - I've not followed this story, although it sounds from the summaries in this thread as if she was utterly unprofessional in her social media use. It's also not to say there aren't any circumstances in which using preferred pronouns would be appropriate, or that I support proactive misgendering on a point of principle. It's just to say that the analogy above just doesn't work - the issues surrounding pronoun use are worlds away.

What interests me most is that while some people aren't bothered by using cross sex pronouns, for others it feels like lying, like having to profess faith in a god they don't believe in. There's also a question of whether a person thinks it is harmful to either use cross sex pronouns or to not use them when requested (i.e. so-called misgendering).

I agree with this. When people say that using preferred pronouns is all about "politeness" it ignores the fact that for many of us the internal taboo against lying is stronger than the internal taboo against being impolite. Or as the late Magdalen Burns memorably put it, "I'd rather be rude than a fucking liar."

So because you have no issue going along with a lie you think others should be fine with it? Many people can’t even bear working within a corporate environment because they can’t be doing with all the bullshit. Schools shouldn’t be places were we compel the speech of teachers and students simply because the current fad for 11 year olds is pretending they are neither male nor female or one of 101 gender identities. It’s absurd this has gone so far and whilst this woman clearly stepped across the line by outing a child online her criticism of trans ideology isn’t something that should be considered as breaking professional standards and as far as “misgendering” goes I think the jury is still out. Personally I think it will transpire that compelled speech is by far the greater problem.