Gisele Pelicot defendants described

A convoluted definition of surprise! Is there no simple offence that they can clearly be charged with, because the implication is that the law isn’t really sure if this is problematic behaviour?

I don't know if it has been mentioned, but the French legal definition of rape doesn't actually involve consent. This is the definition:
"Any act of sexual penetration of any kind whatsoever, or any oral-genital act committed on another person or on the person of the perpetrator by violence, coercion, threat or surprise".
Apparently the prosecution are relying upon a convoluted version of surprise, because she was unconscious and unaware.

I wonder if this is influencing these rapists' decisions to describe their supposed lack of understanding of sexual consent.

Message above meant to quote this excellent post.

Yes, most women would not find this attractive.

Hence things like the 4B movement which is a rational response to high numbers of men getting off on degradation and harm to women (i.e. porn)

In Paris (3ème)

Another BBC article on Gisèle, she really is amazing

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c1elzzz6g0lo

Obviously the usual warnings but...jc...'choking'!

👏👏

Men react to the idea of banning porn as though it was a plan to ban oxygen or water or something essential to existence 🙄

@Bobblebottle but don’t you know it’s normal to watch porn? Men need porn, they’re visual creatures. Don’t be such a prude /s 🙄

One of the many reasons I’m single is because I am simply unable to become aroused around a man who enjoys wanking over what is an endless quest to find every possible way in which women can be degraded.

I find it astounding that the role of internet porn is barely explored, as Janice says. One look at a mainstream porn website and knowing that 50-90% men watch porn (depending on source/demographic) makes it very clear how actually, 'ordinary men' go home from work and get off on the degradation of women. Why is the best assumed of men when we look at porn and how many men consume it?? Ordinary men are seriously misogynistic.

It really was

Janice's article has done a good job or bringing to life the concept I've been sort of fumbling around. This idea that these so called "good men" just really don't see themselves as doing anything wrong. They can look at a passed out woman in a bed and convince themselvees that she CHOSE this. That this is consent and that it's okay. That they don't have to take responsibiilty becuas they thought she liked it.... The entire article was actually very upsetting.

Wow. those pathetic excuses.

FWR stands for feminism and women's rights. It was the old name for this board.

Women concerned with transgender ideology posted about it on FWR and other women thought it was taking up too much space, so the boards were split into the two feminism boards you see now. Where everything to do with women's rights in connection with transgenderism were to be confined to this specific board.

But people often use the old name, as I guess it's easier and more descriptive. Plus there's a certain attachment to the name.

While I thought the recent meme"would you choose to be some in the woods with a man or a bear", was silly, at least bears leave you as lone if you appear dead.

What's FWR by the way

It strikes me that this case has wider implications about whether women have full human rights in France.

Too many of the accused men clearly don't think women have human rights and that they are the property of men.

Notable that the feminist graffiti artists show more care about harming city walls than 70 men showed towards an actual human woman. Thoroughly depressing.

It's terrifying how widespread using chemicals to subdue women and children(!) seems to be. I do worry this'll be a light bulb moment to some current and potential abusers. I hope something is done to restrict the availability of these drugs. At the moment it seems to be a free for all...men.

The Dino Scala case mentioned in the article (there's an article in LeMonde that you have to be a subscriber to read in full)

https://www.lemonde.fr/en/m-le-mag/article/2023/01/16/the-rapist-of-the-sambre-and-the-heroic-mayor_6011692_117.html

The director to of TV series that fictionalises what happened says there was very little interest in France when these crimes came to light when the rapist was caught.

I liked this detail about the women graffiti artists supporting Gisele

I meet feminists from Les Amazones d’Avignon, the creators of graffiti across the city supporting Gisèle. (So as not to spoil the city walls, they write slogans on paper that can be removed.)

These women would fit in on FWR, feminist and practical.

Great article. I can't believe the maximum possible sentence is 20 years. Some of these men are young and will get out with plenty of life ahead of them.

Damn, that's an extraordinary article. Janice Turner conveys so much, so succinctly.

And, overwhelmingly, partly as a result of the brutally matter of fact ways she writes about this, her stone cold fury drips from every word.

After reading that, I can't help thinking I never want to go to France again.

It suddenly makes you realise how much progress women have made with regard to rape laws and rape myths in this country.

The women in this, Gisele herself, other rape survivors, the women writing the brilliantly positive graffiti across the country and those who clap Gisele in a corridor of support as she leaves the court, and Janice Turner herself, are phenomenal.

If the law doesn't change as a result of them there will be riots.

Excellent article by Janice Turner today.

I sat in court at the Gisèle Pelicot rape trial. This is what I saw

www.thetimes.com/article/5deef277-12a8-41da-98ab-5ff283a6d6f6?shareToken=9c264075d5b71d81942dd5cec0f40b6d

" I remember a quote from, I think, George Clooney in which he implied that yes, they all knew that Weinstein was a bit of a prat the way he leered at women, younger ones especially. And I lost instant respect for him - because why did none of these men ever tel him he was wrong? "

The great unsayable. Men are scared of other more powerful men too

Great post.

Let's hope here there will be accountability and proper punishment. If not, it will be hell on earth for women.it will show the law is by men for men and that women might as well not bother trying to get legal redress.

There is evidence and Dominique has admitted everything and given evidence against the others.

If Gisele Pelicot does not get justice then there IS no justice for women in France.

I've been trying to get my head around this a bit more since my earlier post.

A sort of subtle point is that in thebroader societal sense, men don't have to take responsibility and accountability. Hear me out. I know that sounds counter-intuitive - we all know that men are the ones whoin our society have had all the power, they make the decisions, the world is set up to work for them etc etc. But ifyou think about it, certainly at this point in our existence, there's no accountabilility. Politicians don't resign when they do things that are outrageous. Celebrities don't disappear into obscurity when they are caught. They fight back and say it was okay, they didn't do it, they had good reasons... and somehow, that is accepted.

And the result is that perhaps even more than at previous times that accountability and responsibility is gone. There's no expectation that people (men) will put their hands up and say, "I did this thing and that was not okay".

When you overlay that with the reality that men have been brought up to believe they are entitled to things - wealth, power, women - it becomes even more noticeable.

I saw a tweet yesterday about Gregg Wallace in which someone pointed out that there are now all these women coming out to say how often his behaviour was inappropriate... but where are the men!? I felt the same with the Harvey Weinstein fiasco. I remember a quote from, I think, George Clooney in which he implied that yes, they all knew that Weinstein was a bit of a prat the way he leered at women, younger ones especially. And I lost instant respect for him - becase why did none of these men ever tel him he was wrong? It's like it's so completely normal to them and they all think that men are entitled to do what they like that even when they sort of know maybe it's not great, they still think it's okay and, by doing nothing, go along with it.

But this last one is interesting. I think it actually reflects a reality of sorts - so so many men, even the so-called "good ones" just deep down believe women are lesser. That they can be good men even as they treat women badly because that's not "real" somehow.

I think that's a highly accurate insight.

And that disassociation is all aided and encouraged by pornography. Legitimising that certain women can be used in a way that steps outside of reality. Because it gets wired into their brain through the constant use of porn. As you say, not 'real'.

And the fact that they all met in a chat room by the same name only legitimise it further. See, there are lots of men like us, it can't be that bad

This is typical Guardian sympathising with the male abusers whilst pretending to be "feminist". We see you.