Gisele Pelicot defendants described

And how many of those only turned the chief rapist down simply because they didn’t fancy Gisele, rather than because they morally disapproved?

What I'm really struggling with about this case is not the men who did rape Gisele (I'm depressingly resigned to the fact that there are so many abusive, sexually depraved men about), but the 60% of men who turned down Dominiques offer but then did nothing to stop him. If this is representative of men generally then it scares the crap out of me as a women and a mother of a daughter.

This was hard to read

Some of the men who were unidentified said in conversations with Dominique that they were also drugging their partners. "That, for me, is the most painful part of the case," Mr Bosse Platière said. "To know that there are some women out there who could still be victims of their husbands."

It's been dragged into the daylight now, it's no longer unimaginable. Something the Doctors, the Police and the women themselves can watch out for.

What an extraordinary woman she is

Article posted today on BBC website.

If MN had a woman of the year, surely the title would belong to Gisele.

Gisèle Pelicot removes all trace of husband in France mass rape trial - BBC News

So many men think the purpose of women is for the sexual gratification of men... the more ndola extreme the better. I think many women find themselves in situations where they go along with things because they somehow think it is an extension of pleasure onky to find it is painful humiliating or degradating... but their partner enjoys it so they put up with it.. somehow suppressing their own feelings... finding themselves inexplicably depressed later in life.

I am shocked by the rugby players but very very glad to see they will serve prison sentences unlike the ones in northern Ireland. The lady in France woke up with critch in her vagina.. those men are animals.

I think it was this thread that I saw this case mentioned, the rugby players who gang raped a young woman in France, apologies if I've misremembered. Anyway, they've been found guilty

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-14191733/Former-international-rugby-player-jailed-guilty-gang-rape-student-hotel-France.html

@andIsaid This article originally from the washington post says it so much better than I ever could!
https://archive.ph/T8e0Z

Utterly horrifying

One in three.

If they are sure they'll get away with it and you don't actually use the word 'rape' in the question, that's how many men¹ say they would forcibly have sex with a woman who didn't or couldn't consent.

If you actually call it rape, the number drops to one in six.

¹ IIRC the study was of US university students. So perhaps they improve a little as they grow up, but it may also be worse in place like France that don't include the concept of consent in law.

I can't remember word for word the pathetic excuses coming from the rapists regarding consent hopefully they're clutching at straws and get heavy prison terms
Being presented with an unconscious drugged woman to abuse is RAPE.

Maybe not all men, but this was a perfectly ordinary town not some weird hub of perversion and the reality is that he was easily able to fine 70+ men within the vicinity of the town willing to rape an unconscious woman. The likelihood is that the same could happen anywhere and there’s probably 70 men in the vicinity of you or I willing to do the same.

@Bobblebottle

I do think that consent in and of itself is an inappropriate framework with which to conduct sexual relationships, and therefore our understanding or definition of rape.`

Would you mind expanding on this a little @Bobblebottle . I think I see what you mean but need a little help.

I honestly think that previous abuse that they've suffered makes their abuse of Gisele Pelicot far far worse.

It's one thing to do something so terrible when you're totally lacking in empathy for the victim because you cannot conceive of the hurt you are inflicting. However if your life has been blighted by abuse and then you inflict that on another, you know to a greater extent the trauma you are causing. And yet, still these men chose to do it anyway. Monsters.

Plenty of children who are abused don't go on to be abusers.

1

I recently listened to this podcast interview with Isabelle Thieuleux, a French feminist lawyer, who was discussing this case. She made the point that in France people are pushing for lack of consent to be included in their definition of rape but she feels that is a bad idea because the notion of consent puts all the focus on the woman's behaviour, whether she said 'no' etc, rather than the intent of the man, and also because men accused of rape always argue that the sex was consensual.

Given the different legal definitions of rape in the UK vs France, I would be interested to know if there is a difference in rape convictions outcomes. I do think that consent in and of itself is an inappropriate framework with which to conduct sexual relationships, and therefore our understanding or definition of rape.

He had a previous conviction for upskirting - circa 2010, IIRC. So there must have been a way to prosecute it before the 2018 law, even if under a slightly different name.

Channel 5 / ITN doc on now.

He was finally caught in 2020 after being caught upskirting, which only became an offence in France in 2018 after the UK brought in the offence.

It's then that they found the other videos

I completely agree with this. My previous innocent notions that its only a few men who are bad men has been blown out of the park by arrival of internet porn which has proved that most men are sexually aroused by degrading womem.

NAMALT but Nearly All Men Are Like This.

Her writing often annoys me but The Critic clearly has good sub editors so I could enjoy the substance of this article! .

It's such a good piece. On threads about abusive men, particularly narcissist ones, I often make the point that it's hard because you have to accept the cognitive dissonance of both feeling really sorry for these men who genuinely don't understand why their lives are falling apart when their victims start moving away, and complete contempt and hatred for their behaviours.

I think one of the things abotu this case that has been so disturbing has been this idea that these men just don't have to take responsibility. That somehow, it wasn't their fault. They are the victims. It's awful.

Victoria Smith in the Critic takes on the defendants excuses that they were abused and knocks it out of the park or, rather, court room

thecritic.co.uk/should-we-feel-pity-for-the-pelicot-accused/

another profile on the rapists, this time on the BBC

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cr7vvj8gymyo

There was mention in an earlier link of a "Romeo and Juliet clause" whereby the underage sex charge was excused if the defendant was only a few years older than the complainant

(They also seem.to have set one, at the same age, in 1945 - I'm not sure if that was repealed or just full of holes. My French isn't up.to detailed analysis of legislation. But even 1945 was late to not have one at all.)

https://www.france24.com/en/france/20210415-french-parliament-approves-landmark-bill-setting-age-of-sexual-consent-at-15 in 2021!

Is there no simple offence that they can clearly be charged with?

No - French rape and sexual offences laws are hideously outdated (they only recently added an age of consent). There's a strong push to add consent to the definition in light of this case.