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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Kamala Harris has a problem with men. Will misogyny cost her the election?

331 replies

IwantToRetire · 21/10/2024 18:01

There was an earlier thread about whether the Democrats would support a WOC candidate https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5124648-will-us-democrats-support-a-woc-as-their-candidate-or-will-they-by-pass-kamala-harris

And I think there were some later about her policies, but then maybe there weren't. https://kamalaharris.com/issues/

But was depressed to see this article Kamala Harris has a problem with men. Will misogyny cost her the election?
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/oct/20/kamala-harris-has-a-problem-with-men-will-misogyny-cost-her-the-election
(Should have been men have a problem, not making out she is the problem.)

Polls reflect this age-old dichotomy. Men are more likely to back Trump; women lean towards Harris. A recent New York Times-Siena poll put her 16 points ahead of Trump among female voters. NBC gave her a 14-point lead with women. Trump leads by up to 16 points among men.

Harris’s gender may be tacitly affecting or reinforcing attitudes in other voter categories. In the New York Times poll, 60% of white college-educated voters backed Harris, while 63% of white non-college-educated voters backed Trump. Likewise, Trump, who is white, has a significant advantage among white people while Harris, who identifies as black and Asian, leads among non-whites. Yet voters in two other key categories, blacks and Hispanics, are less supportive of Harris than of Biden in 2020, surveys show – a decline partly driven by younger, non-college-educated Hispanic males. Speaking in pivotal Pennsylvania, Barack Obama angrily castigated his black “brothers” for finding “all kinds of excuses” not to support a woman.

Its just really depressing to think this is the basis on which the decision about the next US President is taken. Because like it or not what the US does or doesn't do impacts on the rest of us.

Even though they are now talking about Trump's mental capacity Trump’s Unwieldy Speeches Raise Questions About His Mental Acuity https://www.forbes.com/sites/saradorn/2024/10/16/trumps-unwieldy-speeches-raise-questions-about-his-mental-acuity/ it doesn't seem likely it will change the minds of his supporters. And is already clear he doesn't feel the need to abide by accepted norms in terms of procedures.

Divisive politics in the UK seems to have lead to an apathy, disengagement (low turn out at GE) but it seems, if news channels are to be believed, that in the US the devisions are making people more active engaged. More oppositional

Or rather men not caring about women's issues, or even trusting a woman to be President.

Kamala Harris has a problem with men. Will misogyny cost her the election? | Simon Tisdall

After a rousing start to her campaign, the Democratic candidate is flatlining in the polls, and sexism could swing the vote in Donald Trump’s favour

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/oct/20/kamala-harris-has-a-problem-with-men-will-misogyny-cost-her-the-election

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MonkeyToHeaven · 24/10/2024 06:32

Hoardasurass · 21/10/2024 18:52

The problem is that Harris is one of the biggest proponents of identity politics and is a complete shit show of a politician.
If the Democrats (party) had chosen Michelle Obama to run against Trump as many Democrats (voters) wanted then I strongly believe that things would be very different. Instead we have a woman who has admitted that she got her start as a politician by having sex with her boss, she's incapable of stringing a cogent adhock sentence together.

Harris was assistant district attorney in Alameda County when they met. Brown then appointed Harris to two political posts while he was speaker of the California Assembly, but that was in 1994 — years before Harris was elected district attorney of San Francisco in 2003. She would remain in that post until 2011, when she won the office of California district attorney. In 2016, she ran for U.S. Senate and was elected.

She destroyed Trump so badly in their only debate that he's run away from any further debates and can now be found ranting at various staged town hall events about any old crap apart from policy.

knitnerd90 · 24/10/2024 04:40

Oh what a load of conspiracy nonsense. There's no evidence of all these illegal voters in California. The state is largely one party because the GOP goes according to what the national party wants and not what the locals want. Look at Massachusetts and Maryland, they've elected Republican governors. Even CA elected Schwarzenegger from 2003-2011. the CA GOP still wins in rural parts of the state. They don't want to figure out a way to win in the liberal areas. They lost Orange County only quite recently and it's still knife-edge.

CA adopted the jungle primary, so now sometimes there isn't even a Republican in the general election. They have nonpartisan districting and have still elected influential House members like McCarthy.

Westea · 24/10/2024 04:18

@LifeExperience

Anybody can walk off the street, register to vote using any name they wish, and vote the same day in any election.

What is the process for vote registration?

LifeExperience · 24/10/2024 03:40

American here. Re the electoral college: the Constitution allows each state to decide how it will elect the President. All well and good, until you get to California, which has been a one-party state for decades. Its legislature, with a Democratic supermajority, has enacted a series of utterly batshit insane voting laws designed to make very sure that they never lose their power. California lets everyone and anyone vote without showing ID. In fact, it is ILLEGAL to ask someone who shows up to vote to identify themselves in California. Anybody can walk off the street, register to vote using any name they wish, and vote the same day in any election. They can vote multiple times in multiple places, because there is no one to stop them. California also has more non-citizen residents than any other state. These people are allowed, even encouraged to vote, multiple times if they feel like it. No questions can be asked, BY LAW. It sounds crazy to have a system with no safeguards, but it serves the Dems in California very well.

Not coincidentally, California is also where the popular vote totals are run up for the Democrats. There are many counties in California where the popular vote totals greatly exceed the number of citizens over 18. The result of this is that people in other states do not trust the numbers that come out of California. When a state counts more votes than they have citizens, there is a huge problem, and because the states can't force other states to secure their elections, the only defense they have is to keep the electoral college in place so California doesn't turn the entire US into a one-party state. The other states will absolutely never allow that.

knitnerd90 · 24/10/2024 01:54

That's globalisation, not globalism. See Joseph Stiglitz for example. Globalism specifically is linked to conspiracy theories of control.

TempestTost · 24/10/2024 01:52

knitnerd90 · 24/10/2024 01:35

I am Jewish and "globalists and bankers" is a dog whistle. It's a direct reference to Jewish economic control. If you don't mean to be antisemitic, don't use that phrasing.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/03/the-origins-of-the-globalist-slur/555479/
https://www.ajc.org/translatehate/globalist

No, it really isn't. It's a reference to globalism which is the economic reality we live in, where discrete economies don't really exist to the degree they used to, money, investment, etc, are international, and much of it is mediated through banks. This reduces the ability of nation states to control their own economy, and it gives a lot of power to people who aren''t really part of any nations government. It has very real consequences for workers in every country.

I would love to know what language you'd use to talk about this, or is the idea we just don't?

There are idiots who claim really stupid shit like banking is Jewish conspiracy - those people are antisemites. And more to the point, they are wrong. Globalism is not a Jewish conspiracy.

The vast majority of people who talk about globalism know that, and are actually talking about economics.

Here is a good thing to remember - if you find some other words to substitute for globalism, or even bankers, you will find the same antisemitic conspiracy theorists will use those words too, because they mean the same thing.

knitnerd90 · 24/10/2024 01:43

You do hear people wanting to abolish or reform the Senate, but it gets less air time.

TempestTost · 24/10/2024 01:40

biscuitandcake · 22/10/2024 20:42

That's why there are really strong arguments for systems which recognise that regional difference. A strong argument the other way would of course be that not all Norwegians automatically agree with each other any more than all Germans do. To characterise all Germans as factory workers and all Norwegian as fishermen would be very reductive. There are for example lots of working class people in California and the agricultural sector is huge. Not everyone in the flyover states is some salt of the earth good ole boy. Some of them are super rich. So you could make an argument for tlbith sides. But it is not reasonable to say that just because someone disagrees with you they must be a snooty liberal progressive type with no regards for individual people in those states. Isnt that the worst kind of identity politics?

It's a generalization, you are probably right.

But I think there is a real contradiction in, on the one hand, claiming a political view that says it looks out for those with less power, but not even understanding that materially, right now, a purely population based voting system for president would always work mainly in favour of those who already control the most wealth and political power.

I'd be more sympathetic if there was some understanding that is seems a little concerning. And a lot of it seems to be driven by the fact that the rural people are seen to be making the wrong choices.

The other issues of course is that the states entered into the union with the understanding that they were protecting the political power and influence of their citizens. Had that meant a purely population based vote the union wouldn't have happened and if it changed they'd absolutely be justified to leave.

I always wonder why you hear of people wanting to abolish the electoral college, but not the Senate, which in many ways exist for the same reason.

knitnerd90 · 24/10/2024 01:35

I am Jewish and "globalists and bankers" is a dog whistle. It's a direct reference to Jewish economic control. If you don't mean to be antisemitic, don't use that phrasing.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/03/the-origins-of-the-globalist-slur/555479/
https://www.ajc.org/translatehate/globalist

TempestTost · 24/10/2024 01:28

knitnerd90 · 22/10/2024 19:57

Please don't use the word "globalists." It's a dogwhistle for "Jews."

Also, the GOP has played white identity politics for decades. The surprise this election is that they're getting more nonwhite voters to buy into it.

No, actually, it means globalists.

I can't think of another good word for globalism or globalist - internationalism might come closest but it does have a somewhat different meaning, less focused on economics.

If you want to imagine people using it mean "Jews" you are going to have some very strange ways of understanding normal discussions.

TempestTost · 24/10/2024 01:23

EasternEcho · 23/10/2024 08:08

Trump is a full blooded New Yorker. He was a registered Democrat before he realized that he could sell the idea that he was just one of them to the MAGA crowd and they would buy it. Between Trump and Vance are more Ivy League than Harris and Walz. The Republican party is filled with millionaires. Trump has the richest man in the world, Elon Musk stumping for him. Musk, who won't even allow his workers to join unions. So I'm not sure how this idea that the Republican party is all about the common people is being believed to be honest. Trump looked at supermarket groceries as if he truly was seeing them for the first time.

Edited

You are making a similar mistake that pmc Labour members make about the working classes hating the wealthy.

They don't particularly. They didn't resent Obama even though his background was far outside their experience. Or Bernie Sanders. And Trump, or at least his wealth, has an aspirational quality for a lot of people. (As is Vance's Ivy League education, because he absolutely did not start out as privileged, he was really from the bottom of the pile some of the most neglected people in the nation. Plenty of WC people would love to see their kids do something like that.)

What they resent is people who make it clear they despise them. Which unfortunately is a pretty evident in a lot of the progressive left press.

Even Obama's little gaffe last week fell flat largely because it sounded like he was talking down.

XChrome · 23/10/2024 21:48

WhosPink · 23/10/2024 12:43

Trump offers two things: lower taxes, and protection of American jobs through reduced immigration and increased tariffs on foreign goods.

For many of those who intend to vote for him that is good enough. They may not agree with him on anything else, they may think he’s a liar, a hypocrite, a misogynist, a racist, and a loon. But none of that matters as long as he delivers on tax cuts and protectionism.

Tarrifs do not protect jobs. The opposite. If American manufacturers have to pay huge amounts to import goods they need to make their products, many will just move their factories to Mexico. American consumers are going to foot the bill for Trump's ridiculous tarrifs. He's such a moron that he thinks the exporter pays them rather than the importer. American companies import a ton of stuff from China. If they can't pass the cost of tarrifs onto consumers their profit margins shrink.
So either the jobs go off to Mexico or the consumer pays higher prices. It's inevitable.
Trump is a incredibly stupid man who understands nothing about economics or anything else. Anyone who votes for him has to be stupid as well, or at least very ignorant. His supporters are not the best and the brightest, to say the least.

knitnerd90 · 23/10/2024 19:51

The Democrats currently do have a majority of college educated voters, but the issue is not simple "elitism". That's the republican narrative. Urban voters, regardless of income level, lean Democratic. THAT's what they mean, more than income. The GOP simultaneously complains about people voting Democratic to get welfare. Meanwhile, most of their politicians are actual elitists. Ted Cruz trying to play the common man makes me want to spit.

TooBigForMyBoots · 23/10/2024 18:53

WhosPink · 23/10/2024 12:43

Trump offers two things: lower taxes, and protection of American jobs through reduced immigration and increased tariffs on foreign goods.

For many of those who intend to vote for him that is good enough. They may not agree with him on anything else, they may think he’s a liar, a hypocrite, a misogynist, a racist, and a loon. But none of that matters as long as he delivers on tax cuts and protectionism.

As I said previously, he's the USA's Boris Johnson. And like Johnson he will not deliver on his promises.

It won't matter to him. He'll have what he wanted.

TooBigForMyBoots · 23/10/2024 18:43

Shortshriftandlethal · 23/10/2024 09:54

Unfortunately it has got to the point where one side sees itself as morally superior and the other side therefore digs in even deeper and refuses to be patronised. Trump is anti establishment in his rhetoric. The Democrats have become the progressive, elite establishment that pushes its own values through much of the media and through Hollywood, the Ivy League universities, etc, and which also has some very big money backers with their own radical 'progressive' agendas.

Edited

Trump is a repeat sex offender!Shock

It's not hard to feel morally superior to him for that alone.

Abhannmor · 23/10/2024 16:52
  1. Tariffs will be paid for by American consumers and probably increase inflation.
  2. Lower taxes - invariably for the rich - must lead to worse public services for everyone else.
Zahariel · 23/10/2024 14:44

All you have to ask yourself is -

Given everything that Trump quite plainly, provably is, how bad does the "other guy" have to be for 50% of the country to want to vote for him. Twice?

WhosPink · 23/10/2024 12:43

Trump offers two things: lower taxes, and protection of American jobs through reduced immigration and increased tariffs on foreign goods.

For many of those who intend to vote for him that is good enough. They may not agree with him on anything else, they may think he’s a liar, a hypocrite, a misogynist, a racist, and a loon. But none of that matters as long as he delivers on tax cuts and protectionism.

EasternEcho · 23/10/2024 09:57

I don't think I agree entirely with that last post, but let's agree to disagree. I've digressed from the point of this thread.

Shortshriftandlethal · 23/10/2024 09:54

EasternEcho · 23/10/2024 09:50

Oh I agree. One definitely needs to listen to the underlying message that obviously resonates. But what I can't wrap my head around is that the man himself doesn't believe what he says, In all the years he was a businessman, he never once invested in a flyover state, nor cared about them in the least. But yet to listen to people saying how much he cares about their welfare is what I find confounding. As for immigration, open borders, Harris is addressing them. And also one must remember that a bipartisan border control bill was ready to pass, until Trump stopped it because he did not want the issue to be addressed. He wanted to remain a sore spot he can capitalize on. It's one thing to be academic about the issues, and I agree with you on those, but I look at what is actually happening and have to shake my head at the quantity of lies that are believed, and the evidence of their own eyes being ignored.

Unfortunately it has got to the point where one side sees itself as morally superior and the other side therefore digs in even deeper and refuses to be patronised. Trump is anti establishment in his rhetoric. The Democrats have become the progressive, elite establishment that pushes its own values through much of the media and through Hollywood, the Ivy League universities, etc, and which also has some very big money backers with their own radical 'progressive' agendas.

EasternEcho · 23/10/2024 09:50

Shortshriftandlethal · 23/10/2024 09:43

Trump is not a natural politician, he is a populist who manages to voice what it is the masses are thinking and saying to each other. Yes, its crude and vulgar and uncompromising - but there is a need to pay attention to the values that are being expressed beneath the performance. It is about values and about lifestyles. A corrective to too much 'progressive' identity politics and open borders in which the core values that hold a society together begin to break down.

Edited

Oh I agree. One definitely needs to listen to the underlying message that obviously resonates. But what I can't wrap my head around is that the man himself doesn't believe what he says, In all the years he was a businessman, he never once invested in a flyover state, nor cared about them in the least. But yet to listen to people saying how much he cares about their welfare is what I find confounding. As for immigration, open borders, Harris is addressing them. And also one must remember that a bipartisan border control bill was ready to pass, until Trump stopped it because he did not want the issue to be addressed. He wanted to remain a sore spot he can capitalize on. It's one thing to be academic about the issues, and I agree with you on those, but I look at what is actually happening and have to shake my head at the quantity of lies that are believed, and the evidence of their own eyes being ignored.

Shortshriftandlethal · 23/10/2024 09:43

EasternEcho · 23/10/2024 08:08

Trump is a full blooded New Yorker. He was a registered Democrat before he realized that he could sell the idea that he was just one of them to the MAGA crowd and they would buy it. Between Trump and Vance are more Ivy League than Harris and Walz. The Republican party is filled with millionaires. Trump has the richest man in the world, Elon Musk stumping for him. Musk, who won't even allow his workers to join unions. So I'm not sure how this idea that the Republican party is all about the common people is being believed to be honest. Trump looked at supermarket groceries as if he truly was seeing them for the first time.

Edited

Trump is not a natural politician, he is a populist who manages to voice what it is the masses are thinking and saying to each other. Yes, its crude and vulgar and uncompromising - but there is a need to pay attention to the values that are being expressed beneath the performance. It is about values and about lifestyles. A corrective to too much 'progressive' identity politics and open borders in which the core values that hold a society together begin to break down.

Shortshriftandlethal · 23/10/2024 09:35

EasternEcho · 22/10/2024 20:07

I am not as familiar with UK politics as I am with the US. However, a factual aspect is that the UK has already had a woman prime minister in Margaret Thatcher, as has many countries in Europe. The US, however, is still to have a woman as head of state, and many are sceptical that it will ever happen in the foreseeable future. The brand of misogyny in the US seems different in many aspects and also has the influence of Christian fundamentalism, and the image of men with guns as the protector of all things. An interesting consideration is whether even Thatcher or Badenoch will have a chance in the US. I would wager not. There are women like Marjorie Taylor Greene, Boebert, Noem, who we might say have a directness about them, but still wouldn't be elected president. Just to watch Nikki Hayley trying to navigate the US' particular brand of mysogyny as a presidential candidate was quite painful, down to comments on her high heels at a debate.

I'm sure the time will come, but it will need to a woman that is capable of inspiring confidence and let's face it - who also has balls. Neither Badenoch nor Thatcher are/were shrinking 'be kind' violets. I guess Britain has also had three very enduring female monarchs, too...who have symbolised female power.

The U.S.A has its own nature, its own DNA and I guess it is always going to be the case that some of that wild frontier spirit and independence is always going to be one of the defining and motivating factors.

I don't believe that women must necessarily be soft, 'feminine' 'open', caring and 'kind' at every turn - though that is what is now being peddled via Identity politics and 'open borders', for example........ a kind of societal feminisation.......but within a larger culture which also encapsualtes the primacy of the individual and other core values of the constitution which could be said to be represented by direct, plain talking, non nonsense traditional values of home, family and nation first.

The USA is so vast in scale and various in community - and is now entrenched in a deep seated polarisation between different identity groups - it is difficult to know how it could move forward with more unity of value and purpose.

EasternEcho · 23/10/2024 08:08

TempestTost · 23/10/2024 02:17

The Democrats are dominated by middle/upper middle class, professional university educated people. These people make it pretty clear they think of the rural people and working class factory workers as rednecks and people who have backwards values. You can see it any day in the progressive media.

Biden has actually been better at creating economic policy for the manufacturing states. That's rather a shift though, Obama for example was seen as anti-union. And we know what problems HC had with the working classes.

The economic crash didn't do anything to endear WC people to the Democrats, and more recently I think many were almost radicalized due to covid, where it seemed the university educated continuously claimed they were stupid.

Trump is a full blooded New Yorker. He was a registered Democrat before he realized that he could sell the idea that he was just one of them to the MAGA crowd and they would buy it. Between Trump and Vance are more Ivy League than Harris and Walz. The Republican party is filled with millionaires. Trump has the richest man in the world, Elon Musk stumping for him. Musk, who won't even allow his workers to join unions. So I'm not sure how this idea that the Republican party is all about the common people is being believed to be honest. Trump looked at supermarket groceries as if he truly was seeing them for the first time.

XChrome · 23/10/2024 02:21

His lies and stunts display that he thinks his voters to lack the critical thought required to work out what he really is: a carnival barker.

He's not wrong about that, @Westea. A stopped clock and all that.

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