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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Parkrunners! Parkrun survey

209 replies

Parkrunners · 18/10/2024 10:25

If anyone is a parkrunner and has a survey from them, I'd urge you to fill it in. There are two free text sections which provide an opportunity to tell them exactly what the impact of their sexist policy decision not to protect the female sex category has been. They have clearly commissioned this survey to gather data on the mental health and motivation and self esteem and self achievement benefits of Parkrun, as well as its competitive benefits and self-competition benefits, but none of that has been protected for women and girl runners who have effectively been told that Parkrun cannot be bothered to collect accurate sex category data for them, because we somehow don't count. What is it meant to do to the motivation and mental health of female runners to be told we are so second class that our sex category doesn't matter and can be dispensed with?

As a middle aged woman, I am particularly pissed off as the only way I can tell if my running performance is declining, maintaining or improving is to compare myself to others in the same age or sex category. And I can only do this if the sex category is protected.

I am really sick of Parkrun both knowing full well the importance of age and sex data for running and for their Parkrun model, and knowing full well they cannot remove this as the men would not stand for it, whilst also pretending none of this matters and they are just a fun little social run when they need to pretend its ok to record runners under gender identity. Parkrun are trying to maintain a position of both recording this data and pretending it doesn't matter. This is nonsensical.

OP posts:
Parkrunners · 19/10/2024 17:16

TofuTart · 19/10/2024 09:52

to everyone run.
They do but we separate sports by SEX for a reason

It's a bloody fun run though.
The only reason people want it in this scenario though is to compare themselves to everyone else and try and make it competitive.
It's not.

As you slow as you age the only way to assess your performance is to compare to your age and sex category. That is why this data is collected. So people can sensibly see how they are performing for their sex and age.

They are plenty of genuine fun and social runs you can join if that is what you want.

PR can decide it is a fun run and stop collecting data. Fair enough. But whilst it is collecting data, it needs to respect women by doing that fairly and accurately.

OP posts:
Parkrunners · 19/10/2024 17:11

To those saying ‘but PR is inclusive!’ No one is excluded by being recorded under their sex as we all have one. I wouldn’t really care if people could choose to be recorded under gender identity instead of sex. Just keep the female category for females. Sports are recorded under sex for a reason, and that reason matters.

For those saying, it’s just a community fun run! Fine. Parkrun can stop collecting data on sex and age. People can just get their own individual time emailed to them. No comparison at all. Just you and your time.

If Parkrun collect data on sex and age it’s because they know it matters to running performance. And that it matters to runners.

Thwy won’t get rid of it as the men runners would go crazy. Women being treated unfairly by inaccurate data collection are being told women’s sport is not as important. Women have had to fight very hard for their sports to start to be treated seriously. What Park run is doing is a massively retrograde step in terms of how women in sport are perceived. Women in sport have only just started to be told they are taken seriously, and this failure to protect the female sex category is a clear message that women’s sport is not important after all, as fairness can be dispensed with.

What Parkrun is doing matters as it is part of a narrative that women’s amateur sport does not matter. Some people are saying, ‘yeah men shouldn’t be in women’s professional sport but it’s ok in amateur sports’. It’s not. Amateur sports people care about their sports and care about them being fair. Try telling men to accept an unfairness in their amateur sport. Try telling them you are going to get rid of scores and goals and leagues as it’s only a bit of fun so all that stuff is not important. And see how they react.

Women deserve equality and fairness and for what they do to be treated with as much respect as what men do is.

That’s why this matters. If you think what PR is doing is ok, you are saying disadvantaging women because of their sex is ok. And it’s not.

OP posts:
Theunbearablelightnessofbeing · 19/10/2024 11:39

I will look out for the survey. Park Run has moved on from its original incarnation as a time trial and my view is that it is still not sure what it is but that’s my opinion which is of no importance to Park Run.

libertineagain · 19/10/2024 10:34

Firstly thank you to the OP for highlighting the survey. I am a running coach and run leader, member of two running clubs and a very regular parkrun volunteer (including being Run Director -RD of a parkrun and founder of a parkrun). As RD I can see why individual parkruns need support from parkrun to take a stance on sex segregation. It would still be extremely difficult to police but parkrun need to take this stance to protect women's participation in this.

parkrun is the greatest grassroots running movement in the world and it is precisely why sex matters within it.

We know that girls and women's participation in sports drops significantly from puberty onwards. Many of the women I coach are starting exercise from a very low base in their 30s, 40s or 50s. While it is great to see individual improvements each week, it is also important to be able to compare yourself to your peers and the age grading needs to be sex segregated. We know that there are significant sex differences and these are well documented: https://boysvswomen.com/#/ We also know that motivating girls and women in exercise is important for physical and mental health.

Sex segregation in sport is vital at all levels including grass roots. We need to champion girls and women in staying active throughout their lives.

If boys are faster than elite female athletes, should males compete in female athletics?

See how the best high school boys stack up against the best female Olympians and World Record holders in Track & Field and Swimming.

https://boysvswomen.com/#/

GargoylesofBeelzebub · 19/10/2024 10:20

How many 1st Female finishes held by males in parkrun is, in your view, fine?

Currently it stands at 210 & rising. Would 500 be fine? 1000? 10,000? All of them? Please state a number.

Why does parkrun have a Female category? Please explain.

x.com/mara_yamauchi/status/1843533182890623426?s=46&t=AjtjSItRj-kgZwRzL-pdyQ

GargoylesofBeelzebub · 19/10/2024 10:18

This male ran again today in the Female category in parkrun Australia. As usual, massive numbers of females suffered unfairness - he bumped down nearly 200.

But what was noteworthy today was how his massively inflated age grade % score caused unfairness for v fast older men…

x.com/mara_yamauchi/status/1845049655282839620?s=46&t=AjtjSItRj-kgZwRzL-pdyQ

GargoylesofBeelzebub · 19/10/2024 10:17

https://x.com/mara_yamauchi/status/1845093870788297126?s=46&t=AjtjSItRj-kgZwRzL-pdyQ

This young man again got 1st Female in parkrun Australia today, bumping down nearly 150 females, plus top 3 overall and top 3 by age grade ranking. Farcical.

GargoylesofBeelzebub · 19/10/2024 10:15

TofuTart · 19/10/2024 09:52

to everyone run.
They do but we separate sports by SEX for a reason

It's a bloody fun run though.
The only reason people want it in this scenario though is to compare themselves to everyone else and try and make it competitive.
It's not.

Except they age grade the results using gender which is fucking nonsense.

If it's just fun run tell the transwomen to stay out of the female category.

Clearly you either don't understand the issue with the data or are quite happy bowing to men's desires being elevated above female rights to fairness. Whatever just go and do your fun run and leave us to fight this. Because we're never going to stop fighting it, gender destroys everything it touches. It needs to be fought.

TofuTart · 19/10/2024 09:52

to everyone run.
They do but we separate sports by SEX for a reason

It's a bloody fun run though.
The only reason people want it in this scenario though is to compare themselves to everyone else and try and make it competitive.
It's not.

Needapadlockonmyfridge · 19/10/2024 06:05

Done - thank you for flagging the survey, OP.

GargoylesofBeelzebub · 19/10/2024 03:31

Trans people exist though, I can't get worked up about them running in a fun, non competitive, open to everyone run.
They do but we separate sports by SEX for a reason. Transwomen are able to register in two other categories rather than corrupt the female stats.

It's not fair and not right. And we will get it changed eventually so why not just sort it now. .

TofuTart · 19/10/2024 03:19

GargoylesofBeelzebub · 19/10/2024 02:51

Correct. I am getting to my 100th run and very excited about that, getting a bit faster after a slow summer, shaved 30 seconds off my time last week. A friend had time away due to cancer and is now back walking the course. These things excite me. This is the point of PR. I could understand it for competitions but not a community run
What is the point of bothering with it though? It just makes an absolute nonsense of the age grading for biological females.

It's so fucking stupid. As someone who works with data and statistics in my professional life it absolutely boils my piss.

They can still have all the community element without the gender shite.

They can still have all the community element without the gender shite

Trans people exist though, I can't get worked up about them running in a fun, non competitive, open to everyone run.
It's "gender shite" to you but not to everyone else.
I'd rather have it open to all and the competitive out the front runners comparing themselves to others the minute they get home and huffing at those not "taking it seriously enough" or whatever pissing off to a more competitive run more suitable for their needs..

GargoylesofBeelzebub · 19/10/2024 02:53
  • You see weird, I see open and accessible to all who wants to get out and exercise on a Saturday morning, regardless of age, fitness ability, sex, gender, whatever. As pp said, can help mental health too by getting our into the fresh air. Which is why I think it's so great.*

Age grading by sex rather than gender isn't going to change any of that. It'll just make it fairer for females who care about the stats.

GargoylesofBeelzebub · 19/10/2024 02:51

Correct. I am getting to my 100th run and very excited about that, getting a bit faster after a slow summer, shaved 30 seconds off my time last week. A friend had time away due to cancer and is now back walking the course. These things excite me. This is the point of PR. I could understand it for competitions but not a community run
What is the point of bothering with it though? It just makes an absolute nonsense of the age grading for biological females.

It's so fucking stupid. As someone who works with data and statistics in my professional life it absolutely boils my piss.

They can still have all the community element without the gender shite.

TofuTart · 19/10/2024 02:40

Yes, it’s a community event, free to all but in reality it is a hodgepodge of competitive men and boys whipping around in sub 20 minutes, with impressive female runners standing out while there are walkers, dogs, small children and miserable teens forced to do their DofE volunteering by a faceless academy. It’s a bit weird really

You see weird, I see open and accessible to all who wants to get out and exercise on a Saturday morning, regardless of age, fitness ability, sex, gender, whatever.
As pp said, can help mental health too by getting our into the fresh air.
Which is why I think it's so great.

Theunbearablelightnessofbeing · 18/10/2024 22:30

I honestly don’t think they will revert back, its focus has shifted, they have to get sponsored/ funded somewhere. I don’t think it is really clear what Park Run is now. Yes, it’s a community event, free to all but in reality it is a hodgepodge of competitive men and boys whipping around in sub 20 minutes, with impressive female runners standing out while there are walkers, dogs, small children and miserable teens forced to do their DofE volunteering by a faceless academy. It’s a bit weird really. Frankly, it’s a mess. But it gets people moving.

Am I annoyed about the self id in categories, yes, but equally paid competitive events list non-binary as an option (I have been tempted to see if I get a higher finishing position) and you can self-select ‘gender’. If I was an elite runner then I would be livid. I am past the stage of ever being good but I am annoyed but I know they are cheating if they aren’t honest about what category they belong to. It’s odd as well, as the runners I know (just hobby runners) wouldn’t want to win/ move up in their age/sex category based on deceit, I mean why train when you can swap from being a male aged 25-30 to a female aged 35 plus? Why not change your age too? Park Run won’t check.

Elizo · 18/10/2024 22:19

GargoylesofBeelzebub · 18/10/2024 21:50

It doesn't bother you that the age grading is essentially mixed sex as they use the nonsense of gender?

support.parkrun.com/hc/en-us/articles/200565263-4-5-Age-grading

Correct. I am getting to my 100th run and very excited about that, getting a bit faster after a slow summer, shaved 30 seconds off my time last week. A friend had time away due to cancer and is now back walking the course. These things excite me. This is the point of PR. I could understand it for competitions but not a community run

GargoylesofBeelzebub · 18/10/2024 21:50

Elizo · 18/10/2024 21:31

You seriously think that this particular issue could affect that? The % weight is against 1000s. I run for health benefits, it’s a community run, come one, come all. Anyway what can PR do about it.

It doesn't bother you that the age grading is essentially mixed sex as they use the nonsense of gender?

support.parkrun.com/hc/en-us/articles/200565263-4-5-Age-grading

Elizo · 18/10/2024 21:32

TofuTart · 18/10/2024 21:30

Middle aged woman park run member here too and completely agree with you.
I love Park Run for the fact it's non competitive, open to all.
I check my times by my past weeks to see if I'm improving.
What other people are or aren't doing is nothing to do with me, if I wanted that I'd go do a competitive race instead of trying to demand or complain that a whole organisation bends its ethos and stance for what I want.
Go find something more suitable if you want to get all competitive about a fun run.

Exactly, no interest in anyone else other than we are all running in a community. I’d rather someone was there getting the benefits of the run, however they show up.

Elizo · 18/10/2024 21:31

You seriously think that this particular issue could affect that? The % weight is against 1000s. I run for health benefits, it’s a community run, come one, come all. Anyway what can PR do about it.

TofuTart · 18/10/2024 21:30

Elizo · 18/10/2024 17:50

As a middle aged woman I can see if I.m improving by looking at my own times. This is a big fuss about nothing. Park run has been instrumental to improving my mental health. I must do the survey to tell them

Middle aged woman park run member here too and completely agree with you.
I love Park Run for the fact it's non competitive, open to all.
I check my times by my past weeks to see if I'm improving.
What other people are or aren't doing is nothing to do with me, if I wanted that I'd go do a competitive race instead of trying to demand or complain that a whole organisation bends its ethos and stance for what I want.
Go find something more suitable if you want to get all competitive about a fun run.

DuesToTheDirt · 18/10/2024 21:01

Elizo · 18/10/2024 17:50

As a middle aged woman I can see if I.m improving by looking at my own times. This is a big fuss about nothing. Park run has been instrumental to improving my mental health. I must do the survey to tell them

But over the course of a few years your times will almost certainly get slower. You might be getting worse, or you might actually be improving relative to what would be expected. You can't measure this by looking at your own times, only by looking at statistics for your sex/age.

Stretchedresources · 18/10/2024 18:08

woman this is the address of Sheffield Hallam for survey comments [email protected]

Stretchedresources · 18/10/2024 18:05

El but you could still be slow compared to an active person your age. I don't care if I'm getting a bit faster in myself, I need to know how fast the speedy women my age are so I can keep pushing myself. If I'm only thinking about my own time I'll be complacent. (I've only been first in my age category twice, I'm not a leader of the pack or anything).

AbsolutelyFemale · 18/10/2024 17:57

Thanks OP. It is really fucking annoying that manspreading has even infiltrated what should be female statistics.

I'll definitely give them my reasons for wanting the female category to be protected. However it's impossible sadly for them to guard against bad actors (and these men pretending to be women surely fit that category 😄😅)

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