Page 7 | Parkrunners! Parkrun survey

Parkrunners · 2024-10-18T09:25:05+00:00

If anyone is a parkrunner and has a survey from them, I'd urge you to fill it in. There are two free text sections which provide an opportunity to tell them exactly what the impact of their sexist policy decision not to protect the female sex category has been. They have clearly commissioned this survey to gather data on the mental health and motivation and self esteem and self achievement benefits of Parkrun, as well as its competitive benefits and self-competition benefits, but none of that has been protected for women and girl runners who have effectively been told that Parkrun cannot be bothered to collect accurate sex category data for them, because we somehow don't count. What is it meant to do to the motivation and mental health of female runners to be told we are so second class that our sex category doesn't matter and can be dispensed with? As a middle aged woman, I am particularly pissed off as the only way I can tell if my running performance is declining, maintaining or improving is to compare myself to others in the same age or sex category. And I can only do this if the sex category is protected. I am really sick of Parkrun both knowing full well the importance of age and sex data for running and for their Parkrun model, and knowing full well they cannot remove this as the men would not stand for it, whilst also pretending none of this matters and they are just a fun little social run when they need to pretend its ok to record runners under gender identity. Parkrun are trying to maintain a position of both recording this data and pretending it doesn't matter. This is nonsensical.

GargoylesofBeelzebub · 21/10/2024 12:07

VoyagerOfTheTeenYears · 21/10/2024 12:03

@Parkrunners I do get what you are saying and agree with you. Why should women make way for transwomen. But I also want transwomen to feel they can parkrun. I know there are women who feel they can’t parkrun with the way things are now too and that is awful. parkrun HQ have gone for taking away a lot of statistics to try and make the problem go away and to be fair to them they have upset a lot of men by doing that (as well as women) and have not budged despite that.

Edited

Who says they can't parkrun? They don't even have to select male if they don't want to. There is a neutral category.

VoyagerOfTheTeenYears · 21/10/2024 12:03

@Parkrunners I do get what you are saying and agree with you. Why should women make way for transwomen. But I also want transwomen to feel they can parkrun. I know there are women who feel they can’t parkrun with the way things are now too and that is awful. parkrun HQ have gone for taking away a lot of statistics to try and make the problem go away and to be fair to them they have upset a lot of men by doing that (as well as women) and have not budged despite that.

GargoylesofBeelzebub · 21/10/2024 11:38

sharpclawedkitten · 21/10/2024 11:25

I totally agree that the "real" reason for getting rid of the stats was because they were too cowardly to say that people should register under their sex, not gender identity.

The argument is always about "policing" it. Yet we expect people to register under the right age group and that doesn't seem to be a problem. I assume if a 20 year old ran a age course record in the 80-84 category someone would notice and raise it with parkrun HQ. So not sure why you can't raise an obvious male-bodied person running as a woman.

Agree it's tragic. Fair sport for women at any level, elite or "community", should not be controversial.

Yes this is the point. We can't police every single driver's speed for example but that's no reason for not having a speed limit.

Similarly it is not possible to police everyone's sex registration but where it is spotted that someone has registered in the wrong sex class it should be possible to have that corrected.

sharpclawedkitten · 21/10/2024 11:27

I had thought that parkrun results had been excluded from the Run Britain rankings (as the results are not verified) but someone told me that they were still there. That is something I think should change, because those rankings are about competitive sport

That's right, they are still there. I am glad about that, although I agree that they should not be as they are not robust.

Not sure why parkrun needs to accommodate people who want to go for a stroll either - there are alternative walking/hiking groups around. If it were down to me, there would be a cut-off of about an hour, depending on the difficulty of the parkrun course, but I'd get banned from parkrun for suggesting that!

sharpclawedkitten · 21/10/2024 11:25

I totally agree that the "real" reason for getting rid of the stats was because they were too cowardly to say that people should register under their sex, not gender identity.

The argument is always about "policing" it. Yet we expect people to register under the right age group and that doesn't seem to be a problem. I assume if a 20 year old ran a age course record in the 80-84 category someone would notice and raise it with parkrun HQ. So not sure why you can't raise an obvious male-bodied person running as a woman.

Agree it's tragic. Fair sport for women at any level, elite or "community", should not be controversial.

AuntieStella · 21/10/2024 11:14

Parkrun doesn't see itself as a sport, it sees itself as a mass participation activity (and it attracts huge numbers who are voting with their feet - literally - by volunteering, walking or running it; the numbers keep growing).

Yes it knows that people participate for all sorts of personal reasons, and that some might see it as competitive. But that's not what parkrun is setting out to offer - and it is why it has stated that it will if necessary scrap the published results - to make it clear that it's about the participation not the comparison to anyone other than yourself.

I like the published results - not to track my progress, but to see how my mates are doing (those I've seen are at the same event and who I look for in the table, those I have as "friends" on the scraper app, and those who belong to the same club as me - where I'm usually looking to see where they have been as a tourist). It would be a shame if that all went. But that is what might happen, because parkrun has been very clear it would rather do that than verify either the age or any other characteristic of its participants.

I had thought that parkrun results had been excluded from the Run Britain rankings (as the results are not verified) but someone told me that they were still there. That is something I think should change, because those rankings are about competitive sport.

Original poster

Parkrunners · 21/10/2024 10:26

I do agree that trans women should not use the female gender for parkrun results (and there is the option to not have a gender recorded) but I think if parkrun took this stance it would be seen as less inclusive and they have doubled down on this and hidden the records away to go for community inclusive activity events rather than promoting fast running achievements. There is no way they could police it anyway which I know is not the point but it would just cause unpleasantness

I understand what you are saying but I do take issue with some of the underlying cultural attitudes in this post, which I see as part of the reason why fairness for women has been so dispensible.
be seen as less inclusive. Why is fairness for women seen as not inclusive? Why are women the category of people who can be deprioritised in this way? Women like me are asking for very basic and pre-existing rights. The right to fairness in sport. The fact that people can see maintaining this is 'not inclusive' is the problem and its a problem with the value placed on women in our society.
The position I am advocating excludes no-one. Everyone can still run, just under their sex ( or even a separate record by gender identity).

There is no way they could police it anyway Saying its too hard to police destroys all women's amateur sport. You've just said women's amateur sports are dispensible with because its too hard.

would just cause unpleasantness Again, the attitude here is that women standing up for their basic rights and fair treatment causes unpleasantness and so women should just stop doing this. Again, this reveals an underlying cultural attitude to the low value placed on women.

I am not having a go at this poster in particular, but rather I am using that paragraph as a really good example of the cultural attitudes to women that have allowed gender ideology to take hold.

Girls matter, women matter, as pp said, our participation in sport and activity is already lower than boys and men. We absolutely deserve and are entitled to fair and equal treatment in amateur sports, even if a few males find that unpleasant. Plenty of men were unhappy when women started running marathons but that was not a reason for women to stop.

OP posts:

VoyagerOfTheTeenYears · 21/10/2024 10:05

The actual percentage number you get for your age grade which you can compare overtime for your own results does not depend on other people’s performance but is based on elite records. So for example, if somebody of your sex and age had done 5K in 15 minutes as a record and you ran 30 minutes, your age grade would be 50%.

Regarding comparing your performance with other people at a parkrun, this is okay if everyone is out there trying to get a PB but loads of people use parkrun as part of a longer run or maybe an easy run. It isn’t a race for everybody taking part so those comparisons might be a bit meaningless.

I do agree that trans women should not use the female gender for parkrun results (and there is the option to not have a gender recorded) but I think if parkrun took this stance it would be seen as less inclusive and they have doubled down on this and hidden the records away to go for community inclusive activity events rather than promoting fast running achievements. There is no way they could police it anyway which I know is not the point but it would just cause unpleasantness. To be honest there is no right answer to this that would make people happy and I really don’t think they’re going to change their mind.

If only the trans community would look at it and see that there should be a line drawn themselves and register by sex or other gender.

Original poster

Parkrunners · 21/10/2024 09:48

Mmmnotsure · 21/10/2024 09:44

It’s why they are no 50 plus athletes in the Olympics 😁

Unless you are a male identifying into the women's races at the Paralympics of course...
www.spiked-online.com/2024/08/13/now-the-paralympics-are-letting-men-race-against-women/

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Which rather proves the point of the performance gap between men and women, and why we need to keep the female sex category in sport.

OP posts:

Original poster

Parkrunners · 21/10/2024 09:47

sharpclawedkitten · 20/10/2024 21:23

I do think it's coming. My theory is that they will change the name to parkfun and get rid of open results. They will still time people and you will know your overall position, but that will be it, and it will only be in the personal results email.

I don't think that they will get rid of timing altogether as that would kill parkrun as a concept.

Yes you can time yourself on your watch but that isn't the same, and it doesn't count for me. Only official times count (to me, and I doubt I am the only one that thinks that way. A Strava PB isn't a PB, a parkrun PB is a PB - to me.

I did fill in the survey but didn't even think of making any comments in the text box, rather stupidly.

Although as I get slower as I age, I am not sure I necessarily mind if the results become private ;)

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Your overall position is not that great if you are female or older is it? It is the age/ sex grading that is helpful. A PB is not that helpful as you age and are not able to improve on your PB.

One of the reasons Parkrun has been successful as a model is it provides the data people need to to keep them motivated and engaged, regardless of sex or age.

The only reason they will be changing this is because a small number of people don’t want to accept their sex is relevant to their sporting achievement. Because they have fallen for an irrational belief that gender identity replaces sex in all and every aspect of life. Instead of living as they please but recognizing they have a sex and there are times it matters. Like in running.

For everyone else, especially older people and wonen, to lose out because a few people insist on running under the opposite sex to their own, and Parkrun is too cowardly to stand up for women in sport, is tragic really.

OP posts:

Mmmnotsure · 21/10/2024 09:44

Parkrunners · 21/10/2024 09:34

I take it you are either young or do no sport 😁

Runners get slower as they age. It’s why they are no 50 plus athletes in the Olympics 😁

As your absolute times will increase as you age, the only way you can see how your performance is decreasing / maintaining/ improving is seeing how you are doing relative to other people in your age and sex category.

(And no, any poster saying ‘well I am 50 and faster than ever’, is not an argument against this. All that means is that you are training more and/or better than you were in your 30s. If you training is the same, a 30 year old woman will be faster than a 50 year old woman).

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It’s why they are no 50 plus athletes in the Olympics 😁

Unless you are a male identifying into the women's races at the Paralympics of course...
www.spiked-online.com/2024/08/13/now-the-paralympics-are-letting-men-race-against-women/

Original poster

Parkrunners · 21/10/2024 09:34

MissingLynks · 20/10/2024 21:43

As a middle aged woman, I am particularly pissed off as the only way I can tell if my running performance is declining, maintaining or improving is to compare myself to others in the same age or sex category. And I can only do this if the sex category is protected.

Surely the only way to tell if your performance is declining, maintaining or improving is to compare it with your own previous times? Another woman's score isn't going to tell you if you're getting faster or not. Which I believe was Parkrun's rationale here; Parkrun isn't a competition and the only stats that matter is whether you yourself are improving.

I take it you are either young or do no sport 😁

Runners get slower as they age. It’s why they are no 50 plus athletes in the Olympics 😁

As your absolute times will increase as you age, the only way you can see how your performance is decreasing / maintaining/ improving is seeing how you are doing relative to other people in your age and sex category.

(And no, any poster saying ‘well I am 50 and faster than ever’, is not an argument against this. All that means is that you are training more and/or better than you were in your 30s. If you training is the same, a 30 year old woman will be faster than a 50 year old woman).

OP posts:

GargoylesofBeelzebub · 20/10/2024 23:57

MissingLynks · 20/10/2024 21:43

As a middle aged woman, I am particularly pissed off as the only way I can tell if my running performance is declining, maintaining or improving is to compare myself to others in the same age or sex category. And I can only do this if the sex category is protected.

Surely the only way to tell if your performance is declining, maintaining or improving is to compare it with your own previous times? Another woman's score isn't going to tell you if you're getting faster or not. Which I believe was Parkrun's rationale here; Parkrun isn't a competition and the only stats that matter is whether you yourself are improving.

🙄 Totally missing the point of age grading here.

MissingLynks · 20/10/2024 21:43

As a middle aged woman, I am particularly pissed off as the only way I can tell if my running performance is declining, maintaining or improving is to compare myself to others in the same age or sex category. And I can only do this if the sex category is protected.

Surely the only way to tell if your performance is declining, maintaining or improving is to compare it with your own previous times? Another woman's score isn't going to tell you if you're getting faster or not. Which I believe was Parkrun's rationale here; Parkrun isn't a competition and the only stats that matter is whether you yourself are improving.

sharpclawedkitten · 20/10/2024 21:23

TofuTart · 19/10/2024 21:04

For those saying, it’s just a community fun run! Fine. Parkrun can stop collecting data on sex and age. People can just get their own individual time emailed to them. No comparison at all. Just you and your time

Yes, maybe that would be a better solution

I do think it's coming. My theory is that they will change the name to parkfun and get rid of open results. They will still time people and you will know your overall position, but that will be it, and it will only be in the personal results email.

I don't think that they will get rid of timing altogether as that would kill parkrun as a concept.

Yes you can time yourself on your watch but that isn't the same, and it doesn't count for me. Only official times count (to me, and I doubt I am the only one that thinks that way. A Strava PB isn't a PB, a parkrun PB is a PB - to me.

I did fill in the survey but didn't even think of making any comments in the text box, rather stupidly.

Although as I get slower as I age, I am not sure I necessarily mind if the results become private ;)

Gymrabbit · 20/10/2024 20:20

This reply has been withdrawn

This message has been withdrawn at the poster's request

Original poster

Parkrunners · 20/10/2024 10:53

AuntieStella · 19/10/2024 21:43

Parkrun have said they might do exactly that.

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I doubt they will though (that is stop reporting on age and sex and privately just send people their own time). Because (a) the men would hate it, and men hating things always seems to matter more than fairness to women (b) operating in the same way a race or time trail does with accurate courses and publicly displayed results is what makes parkrun distinct, and popular. You don't need Parkrun to record your time and privately send that to you . Anyone can record their time on a phone or smartwatch.

Its have the results publicly displayed, which gives a greater sense of achievement: its seeing how you compare which is valuable to many runners. And parkrun know this. Its reflected in the questions in the survey.

Without this, parkrun is no different from any other social run. Most parkruns around me struggle to get volunteers to run each week. The less distinctive Parkrun is, the less they offer the runners, the less incentive there is for volunteers to turn up and donate a morning in all weathers.

OP posts:

SchoolGuidanceQ · 20/10/2024 10:03

libertineagain · 19/10/2024 10:34

Firstly thank you to the OP for highlighting the survey. I am a running coach and run leader, member of two running clubs and a very regular parkrun volunteer (including being Run Director -RD of a parkrun and founder of a parkrun). As RD I can see why individual parkruns need support from parkrun to take a stance on sex segregation. It would still be extremely difficult to police but parkrun need to take this stance to protect women's participation in this.

parkrun is the greatest grassroots running movement in the world and it is precisely why sex matters within it.

We know that girls and women's participation in sports drops significantly from puberty onwards. Many of the women I coach are starting exercise from a very low base in their 30s, 40s or 50s. While it is great to see individual improvements each week, it is also important to be able to compare yourself to your peers and the age grading needs to be sex segregated. We know that there are significant sex differences and these are well documented: https://boysvswomen.com/#/ We also know that motivating girls and women in exercise is important for physical and mental health.

Sex segregation in sport is vital at all levels including grass roots. We need to champion girls and women in staying active throughout their lives.

Thank you @libertineagain this is really helpful and will enable me to be articulate when I fill in the survey!

WomanWithoutNeedOfPrefix · 20/10/2024 10:00

I really hate the argument that it is 'more inclusive' to use gender than sex.

Everyone has a sex. Some people believe they have a gender identity. Parkrun choose to use a belief system that is not universally held to segregate people into categories, and give no option to state that you do not believe. That is the opposite of inclusive.

Plus the fact that sex is directly relevant to sporting performance, whilst gender is irrelevant.

AuntieStella · 19/10/2024 21:43

TofuTart · 19/10/2024 21:04

For those saying, it’s just a community fun run! Fine. Parkrun can stop collecting data on sex and age. People can just get their own individual time emailed to them. No comparison at all. Just you and your time

Yes, maybe that would be a better solution

Parkrun have said they might do exactly that.

TofuTart · 19/10/2024 21:04

For those saying, it’s just a community fun run! Fine. Parkrun can stop collecting data on sex and age. People can just get their own individual time emailed to them. No comparison at all. Just you and your time

Yes, maybe that would be a better solution

Original poster

Parkrunners · 19/10/2024 20:59

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 19/10/2024 18:32

I love parkrun. It has been hugely beneficial for me. i have done it several hundred times, very slowly, and clocked up lots and lots of volunteer stints. I missed it badly during lockdown and at the first parkrun after that I did my best time for a long time, purely because of the enormous psychological boost of running with lots of others for the first time in ages. I don't know what the answer to this conundrum is. parkrun doesn't check anything anybody says about themselves when they register. They could make up a name or only use part of a name, and some people clearly do, because all results are visible online and searchable, and there are obvious reasons why some people don't want to be identifiable in that way. They could be making up their age, again to make identification less likely or to game the stats. There is no way to police whether people register as F or M. The only answer I can see is for it to become socially unacceptable to claim to be F if you're actually M (and vice versa, but for reasons we all know that wouldn't affect anything very much in running). That's a much bigger change than parkrun, though.

This is a bigger issue than just parkrun, that bit is true.

However, I can't agree with the rest.

Firstly, Parkrun are not saying ' this is too difficult for us to police'. They are actually promoting their position as a principled one which makes sense. Its not principled to say female running is so unimportant that we can treat female runners unfairly and unequally. It doesn't make sense to record sports by gender identity rather than sex, as gender identity has no impact on sporting ability. You may as well record results by eye colour or the runner's favourite tree, because those have just as much impact on their sporting potential.

Secondly, Parkrun would not be expected to check everyone's age or sex. They could be expected to have a process where people can report if they feel someone is recorded in the wrong sex. Indeed Parkrun have changed the record of a man ran under his wife's parkrun id. That was no allowed to stand as a female time.

It might sometimes be challenging for them to do this. However they are a very large (international) organisation. And failure to do this is deprioritising women's running and women's amateur sports because ' oh its just too hard.', Which in itself shows how deeply Parkrun is infused with a culture that does not value women's sport. People find a way to do the things they think are important or that they value. Parkrun have not, as they have actively decided to prioritise gender ideology over women's basic rights. In this case, the right of women to fair and equal participation in sport.

Parkrun are currently trying to face both ways - to both say they are just a social run for a bit of fun and to say its important to accurately record times over a measured distance by age and sex, which they currently pump enormous resource into doing. Recording age and sex against running times cannot both be important and irrelevant, which is effectively what Parkrun are currently saying. They have to decide which of these two things they are, and whichever they pick, to value the integrity of women's sport and our equal and fair participation in running.

OP posts:

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 19/10/2024 18:32

I love parkrun. It has been hugely beneficial for me. i have done it several hundred times, very slowly, and clocked up lots and lots of volunteer stints. I missed it badly during lockdown and at the first parkrun after that I did my best time for a long time, purely because of the enormous psychological boost of running with lots of others for the first time in ages. I don't know what the answer to this conundrum is. parkrun doesn't check anything anybody says about themselves when they register. They could make up a name or only use part of a name, and some people clearly do, because all results are visible online and searchable, and there are obvious reasons why some people don't want to be identifiable in that way. They could be making up their age, again to make identification less likely or to game the stats. There is no way to police whether people register as F or M. The only answer I can see is for it to become socially unacceptable to claim to be F if you're actually M (and vice versa, but for reasons we all know that wouldn't affect anything very much in running). That's a much bigger change than parkrun, though.

libertineagain · 19/10/2024 18:14

I was over the moon to get 59.60% age grades score and 3rd in my age category this morning. I came 42 out of 147 runners so my age/gender information was definitely a better reflection of performance that the overall results.

Original poster

Parkrunners · 19/10/2024 18:05

TofuTart · 18/10/2024 21:30

Middle aged woman park run member here too and completely agree with you.
I love Park Run for the fact it's non competitive, open to all.
I check my times by my past weeks to see if I'm improving.
What other people are or aren't doing is nothing to do with me, if I wanted that I'd go do a competitive race instead of trying to demand or complain that a whole organisation bends its ethos and stance for what I want.
Go find something more suitable if you want to get all competitive about a fun run.

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Its not demanding an organisation changes its ethos. Its expecting it to implement its chosen ethos in a way that does not disadvantage women. Parkrun decided that recording sex and age was important, and having a measured course and recording chipped times was important. It did that because it knows that age and sex are the two characteristics we all have that affect running performance. It knows this matters to runners and fairness and accuracy matters to runners. Hence the measured and chip timed course.

There are plenty of social and fun runs that you can join if that is what you want.

But Parkrun made and active choice not to be that. Deciding all this is important, but just not for women so we can be elastic about the whole sex thing, disadvantages women and that is sexism.

If parkrun wants to be a social run, that's just a bit of fun, just like all the many other social running clubs, it can do that and get rid of recording age and sex, and hell, even accurately measuring courses and times. That would be fair enough. It can decide to CHANGE its ethos to that.

But whilst its saying these things are important and it does by doing them, it has to do them in a way that is fairly implemented for women too.

Its rather dispiriting to hear women say that women wanting to be treated equally and fairly is somehow an outrageous entitled demand.

And as others have said on the thread, no, as you slow as you age, and you will, you cannot tell if you are improving by only looking at your times. You can only do this by looking at age and sex comparators. And that will only work if those are accurate. And PR knows this, and its why is collects that data.

OP posts: