Parkrunners! Parkrun survey

If you are concerned about results that are pushing you down the national rankings, then you are probably competing regularly in UKA events. The rules for those are sex-based.

So I'm not sure what your point is here - other than agreeing with my much earlier post that parkrun results should not be included in Run Britain rankings (or indeed any others)

BTW: You can of course know how you compare to the fastest women by looking at your age/sex grading. The comparators there are the elite records, all run under UKA rules. So if you are clocking 90-95% (ie top 5-10%) you can still find this out. (My home event's record holder in the age/sex grading category was over 90%, before they ceased publishing info on records)

Of course, assuming parkrun do as they say and abolish the publication of times (because they want, as they have said all along, to be a gender inclusive participation activity) then it will be completely impossible to know where you came or whether you're in the top 5-10%.

Parkrun is a very autocratic organisation - I've come across this in other aspects of its policy and practices. I really don't think it will do anything other than that which it says it will. So this survey might take them further down the track of abolition
(Disclaimer I did not participate in because it asks for exact dob, not age bracket, and I don't see why they need that level of detail for these purposes, so I haven't seen the full range of questions)

It's not a case of assuming anyone faster "must be a man", it's a case of no longer knowing if you came 10th or 12th or 18th (if it's a case of where you place nationally, you're pushed down hundreds of places or more). You cannot know if you're in the top 5% or top 10% of female runners because the female category is now mixed sex.

You do realise how much faster the average man runs don't you than the average woman? I may beat lots of men but I'm still only middle of the pack in most races. However, against other females, I'm in the top 10% of all female runners. I know this because I was fortunate to have raced before our sex category became mixed sex. It's really sad that nobody cared enough to protect the female sex category so now the data is pretty much useless and we can no longer see truly where we place against other female runners.

I do sometimes wonder if one of the ultra speedy women isn't.......
See, this to me is just another level of ridiculous.
Gets home, checks list - "That woman's faster than me, must be a man..." 🙄

I've been running and volunteering for a decade. I'm competitive every time I'm there. I gradually try and get past runner X, then runner Y and so on and try and sprint at the end when it's flat and overtake as many people as I can. Then I compare my times to other women my age. I do sometimes wonder if one of the ultra speedy women isn't.......
I ran more during this week as there was a woman who annoyed me last week and I was hell bent on beating her. So, yes, it's competitive.

I am assuming that someone who writes parkrun as Park Run, hasn't done one

Weird take! I've done several, and enjoy it when I do. Haven't done one for ages, should really start up again.
Would be interesting to know how many of those wanting to turn it all competitive have ever been - I notice the pp I asked upthread hasn't answered yet 🤔

Indeed.

Anyone declaring an event is not ‘competitive’ in some way because people are not checking their position at the finish but their times etc when they get home must know they have already lost any valid argument.

It has been said on thread after thread that any release of details of performance is counter to the denial of being competitive. Parkrun cannot have it both ways and they are trying very hard to convince people that up is down and competitive is not competitive and that male people are female people.

"only when you go home and look up how you did time wise"

Exactly. Are you telling all women that they can't have that choice to be competitive. They should just choose not to look up their times?

The men can look up how they compare to other men but women just have to suck it up and not bother about being competitive as that's just for the men as the female category is now mixed sex.

The only category of people who get excluded are now the category of people who were born female. Hardly inclusive.

I wouldn't care if only they made it so the men couldn't be competitive and compare their times against other men either so that it's truly fair.

Quite.

I am assuming that someone who writes parkrun as Park Run, hasn't done one.

As I've been doing them for a long time now, it's a bit annoying when someone asks their granny to suck eggs and tries to explain in words of one syllable what (they think) it represents.

When you do a race you don't necessarily know the results there and then, either. Sometimes you do, but more commonly you get a text or have to wait until you get home to look them up.

It's competitive for the people who want it to be, as they can look up their times afterwards (and for the best ones, see where they finished), compare themselves to others of similar age to see how they are doing relatively (as no 60+ is likely to want to compare themselves to 20somethings), and see whether they are improving relative to others. This can be a big motivator, even for those of us who will never be at the front - I'm a pretty terrible runner, but would still feel chuffed to move from e.g. lower half to top half of my age group.

Anyone who isn't interested in that aspect is free to ignore it, and clearly many people are not interested, and are just happy to finish, stroll round with their buggies or whatever. They are under no obligation to look at the times and stats afterwards, and are welcome to blissfully ignore them - so they are unaffected either way.

However, currently, for the people who DO value the competitive and/or performance-rating elements (and there are many, as the complaints over dropping the results previously showed!), there is currently a big bias, as male runners a) are much less likely to have their results/performance ratings affected by people running in a "gender" category that doesn't match their sex (and if they are affected, the difference is likely to be much smaller, and usually in their favour), and b) they have the option to massively increase their performance stats, at the expense of female runners, if they choose to run as a "woman".

Whereas women do not have that option to artificially bump up our own stats, and we DO stand to lose out much more when other people do, including potentially losing first position or other top positions in our age categories, and even overall first female finisher positions for the best women, to men - but it also affects every single woman lower down the rankings too.

HOW exactly is that fair, or "inclusive", to women? It would be easy enough to include both sex and "gender" if they really wanted, but even just listening to women and showing some understanding of our disappointment would be a start. Instead, Parkrun have been quite insultingly dismissive of women who complained, while (it seems) bending over backwards to let a small group of men get what they want. The misogyny and hypocrisy seems even clearer when you realise that a lot of the men prating at and insulting women online the most about this are the exact same men who ARE quite competitive themselves and were e.g. in groups tracking who had most "first finishes" and so on, but then love to tell women they should F off because "it's non-competitive and inclusive blah blah" (thinking of some of the ones I've had run-ins with previously!).

So it's categorised, and it's competitive

Not when you're running/jogging. Only when you go home and look up how you did time wise.
Whether that's if you're just wanting to see how you did time wise against "Past You"last week, or comparing yourselves to others.
It's only competitive if you make it so.

Have you ever been to and taken part in a Park Run?

There clearly are categories because people register in sex categories, and, times are publicly listed.

So it's categorised, and it's competitive.

Parkrun itself isn't competitive though.
There's no categories when you run.
You all just start running together.
There's no "winners"or "losers."
Just people out for a run.
Fun runners, joggers, people out to try and get a bit of fresh air, do something with their Saturday mornings, and I've even someone walk round with a buggy and their baby.
Which is why it's so great. That there's no competitive element.
It's competitive only if you go home and look up results and compare yourself to what everyone else is or isn't doing. Whether you're female, male, trans, not trans, adult, child.

If it does rankings, it IS competitive, @TofuTart .

@Elizo I completely agree with you, both in terms of wondering how many people on here genuinely care about Parkrun specifically rather than their own agenda and also that the very few trans women who have entered as women are going to skew the results enough to be an actual problem.

I was actually starting to be swayed by the Op, until she said to another runner:

"You don't care about comparison. Fine. You don't care about competition. Fine. You'd be better of joining one of the plethora of social running groups that cater to your needs."

Why should this poster have to find another group? Comparison and competition are not the only reasons for wanting to join in with Parkrun. In fact, as the survey suggests, there are a multitude of reasons and that is the very brilliant thing about Parkrun: it is for everyone. I actually do care about fairness in womens' sport, but if I had to choose between a trans woman joining my local Parkrun tomorrow morning, and the Op who believes that people who are there for the mere social, mental or physical health benefits would be "better off" somewhere else, then I know who I'd be going with.

I get that Parkrun could take a stance by going with sex over gender but I wish people here would just say that they want this in order to make a point, rather than making up rubbish about it genuinely and significantly impacting times, age grades etc. The far more likely outcome, as many people have pointed out here, is that Parkrun simply stop publishing all results and just email individual ones, which would be infinitely more frustrating for so many more people.

There are many companies worth criticising and so many reasons for which to do so - going for the one that does so much for so many (and is mostly run by volunteers!) seems like misdirected energy and, in fact, risks changing the communication of results for the worst.

I got emailed about it but when I tried to complete the survey I fell at the very first hurdle as page one asked me what my Gender is. Unfortunately I couldn't continue the survey without ticking a box so I didn't complete it.

I did email them to explain why though. Suggested they might want to add the option 'I don't have a gender identity'

I don't suppose they will though 🙄

Very well put @WhatAMessWales - I wish I believed that parkrun care, but its very clear that they don't care about women's feelings about fairness. The uselessness of gender identity question is very important. In other forms where I fed back to organisations asking about gender identity, I compared it to which hogwarts house people are in - it is SO irrelevant and has no bearing on anything else you might tell them.

Here's what I put in the survey:

I love being part of the parkrun community and I love the ethos of the event, but I feel deeply let down by your policy of gathering stats by gender identity rather than sex.

If you think sex is a meaningful category for sports performance (like age), clearly ask people to declare their sex, not their gender identity. People can declare their gender identity as well if it matters to them. And their favourite colour perhaps. If you don't think sex is a meaningful category, don't ask the question at all.

I want to know how my times compare with other female people my age. I'm not interested in how my times compare with other people who think they have a woman gender identity. Just as I'm not interested in how my times compare with other people who have the same favourite colour as me. Neither internal identity, nor favourite colour, affect how fast you can run. People run with their bodies, not their identities.

I know you can't police what people put into a form, but you can set the expectation of what category you consider important. Your current policy makes it clear that you prioritise the desire of trans identified males to feel validated over women's rights to fair competition and the integrity of a female category.

I may be a slow 'fun runner', but I'm still incredibly insulted by this, and it has really soured my feelings about the event as a whole.

I think there's a high chance of it happening. Although as mentioned above, you'll still need an overall position to link with your barcode, so you'll know that you eg came 80th overall.

But you won't know where you came in the women, or your age group, unless they continue to tell you that in the email.

Nobody else will be able to see the results.

I am maybe being pessimistic but I think they want to do that. They know doing away with the timing will be the kiss of death, but doing away with public results (probably) won't.

It will be interesting to see what the results of the survey are and if they take any notice if it doesn't fit in with their ethos.

And once again, grass roots sport matters. Many youngsters go onto higher level athletics as a result of doing parkrun, and older people may do Masters/veterans competitions. It's not fair to push women away to include a few people who think they need to be male to wear a dress. Maybe parkrun could take a stand on gender/sex stereotyping instead.

Hear hear. I’m suspicious about how many on here are regular park run go-ers or just pushing their own agenda. I love seeing where I came in the run and trying to improve my time, see how my friends go. Why would I care what the occasional trans person does, as you say. I hope PR keeps ignoring this lobby. I would be really fed up if they got rid of publishing our times.

I mean, I'm all for PR changing to recognise sex but this really doesn't work as an argument. Those who are happy with how PR works can just as easily tell you that you need to go find your own group if you aren't happy with how things are. There are after all loads of events (any UKA-affiliated event for a start), that do enforce sex categories.

Age grading isn't based on who else is running parkrun so you can use those stats as you always have to gauge your own performance for your age.

No, I stand by my it's not a competition, it's a fun run comments when it comes to the men as well.

It's funny how men are allowed to be competitive at parkrun but if women want to be, they are told to go and find a competitive race instead.

Now why could that be, I wonder?