Parkrunners! Parkrun survey

They started it. See Helleofabore, above.

They trumpet that parkrun is free for all, and indeed most people never volunteer.

I did, until they showed me that they don't care about women. So I've returned from 'active supporter' to 'consumer'.

If they want my labour back, I've made clear my terms. No, it won't work. But I'm not prepared to be a mug for misogynists any longer.

They could do that teawamutu.

But Parkrun seem to be existing in a state of alternate reality. At the same time that they keep making declarations that they are not competitive, they continue to provide ranking data. All while at the same time they declare they are inclusive when in fact, they are allowing male people to negatively impact on female people's results that diminishes the positive outcome for those female people who disagree with the policy.

@teawamutu Not at all, I'm just surprised that you can't see that 'I will do the fun bit (eg run) but not the less fun but (eg volunteer so that other people can run and Parkrun can continue) isn't only an ineffective protest but also hypocritical.

Or - radical notion - parkrun could act to protect the women's category and stop being dicks.

Suck it up then. Yeah, no thanks.

The fact that female people do know when a male runner has been registered as a female runner, and they report this on social media, means that any of these male people identified as registering in the category they should not be eligible for. That is of course, if parkrun change this for the future.

So those people can simply be recategorised and placed in a uncategorised grouping. Same with any person who has been found to be registering in a category they are not eligible to be in, eg age.

So we are all just whingers. Good to know.

Aren’t you now whinging because someone didn’t come up with a solution that you feel works while you just deride those pointing out the issues instead of coming up with solutions of your own? Oh. That’s right, you don’t care.

@teawamutu Well, protesting by not being involved in Parkrun at all would make more sense than 'I'm still going to run but I'm not going to volunteer' Hardly voting with your feet, is it? 🙈

What's your suggestion for an effective protest, then?

Or are you basically just saying suck it up, it's only a few women disadvantaged, which is how we got into this mess?

@Helleofabore But you have just whinged because you still haven't said what you want Parkrun to actually do about this and how this will change things for the better? Of course everyone's not going to then go 'oh, we should have supported female runners, ok then let's now magically make everything completely impossible to cheat'? No one wants anyone to cheat as it is!

@teawamutu I don't think you should stop parkrun if you don't want to, I just think that stopping volunteering to stick it to the organisers is a) hypocritical and b) only impacts negatively on your fellow parkrunners. You don't want unfairness but also don't want to help other women run at all?

This, Mango. No I'm not going to stop parkrunning - I enjoy the run and I enjoy the people I run with, so I'm not going to cut off my nose to spite my face.

But the organisers have chosen to enable the above behaviour in preference to recognising women as proper people in our own right, not support humans. Their decision, but I choose not to donate my labour upholding it and have told them so.

You're perfectly at liberty to disagree; makes no difference to me.

So you didn’t intend to shame others by calling them whingers?

If people are pissed off not getting their rankings, doesn’t that then contradict the posts declaring it is not a competitive run? Of course, the negative impact mostly affects female runners. But maybe if all runners who want their rankings lose that ability, maybe they will start to understand the situation and support female runners.

I can see there's probably no way PR will prioritise girls & women over trans women. It's so shit that trans women want to ruin it for girls & women. It's so selfish and unfair. They could quietly and discreetly be registered as male in line with their biology and no one would be advantaged or disadvantaged and it wouldn't make a mockery of the female category or the data

I'm not sure that people are hugely disagreeing with you in the way that you think they are. For example, I do believe that if a trans woman is currently entering as 'female' then they are cheating (both themselves and biological women) because they know they have a biological advantage that will impact the results.

What I (and a few other park runners on the same wavelength) are saying is that there are a) many ways to cheat if so inclined b) that changing 'gender' to 'sex' doesn't prevent the ability to still enter as female, in exactly the same way that I'm not prevented from entering under any category I want and c) that you can campaign all you want, but the more likely outcome is that you will only receive your individual results, a change that will piss off far more parkrunners than those who are genuinely upset by the current situation. We could also add in that the survey is actually assessing the positive impact on mental health - Parkrun is so overwhelmingly positive that it just feels like you could pick your battles.

“I could put myself in a different age category if I wanted to feel smug, I’d only be cheating myself.”

You would be cheating all the people of that sex category in that age group. You are not just ‘cheating yourself’.

If parkrun don’t want their races to be competitive then they should remove all ranking data from people’s results. The fact that they send people their rankings by sex category and by age means they have continued to make it competitive.

How about if they are discovered registering in the wrong category, they get their results removed from
the female category and listed as uncategorised?

Why should female runners accept that this race is going to be one where they cannot expect accuracy because some male people want to feel included? Why should any race in the UK at any level prioritise male people over female people?

Again, just because you personally (general you) don’t care, why dismiss those female people who do care and make them feel shame for caring and for disagreeing with your personal opinion?

But what do you want them to do? You turn up and you run, anyone can put themselves in any category, what could they do? I could put myself in a different age category if I wanted to feel smug, I’d only be cheating myself.

I just think there are bigger fights than this. As has been said many times, if you are a competitive runner there are plenty of other races you can sign up to. Parkrun is a free community event.

“And with regards to opposing gender neutral toilets, I meant that I don't think all toilets should automatically be unisex or gender neutral, but rather male, female and, where possible, a third unisex / gender neutral option”

Haven’t you just told us that male people will ignore any policies that exclude them from where they demand to be included?

And the results are given in the UK that are specific to each race. So each male person who enters a female category directly impacts the ranking for female people at that race.

Why should any female person have to accept a potential lower ranking because a male person feels they should be validated by their result? Just because some female people think this is fine, why shouldn’t others campaign to make sure the rules are changed to reflect sex? Why should any female runner who thinks the current system should changed feel shamed because other female people dismiss their concerns or declare those campaigning should stop?

And are we being told that a male person who believes they should be treated as a female will not abide by any new policy that excludes them? That they will simply disrespect the rules and policies and register as female knowing they are male? Why would those male runners do this?

@TiredEyesSoreHeart

I'm afraid I haven't managed to find any genuine statistics for the number of trans women who enter worldwide, but there are over 10 million total runners worldwide. Even if there are 'hundreds (of tw) in the uk alone' (which I seriously doubt) and if we assume that the UK is going to have more per capita than many of the less liberal and tolerant countries, then this is hardly 'an epidemic'.

If Parkrun changes from 'gender' to 'sex', then TW who are currently entering as female are still going to enter as female, so I don't see how you think this is going to change things for you personally?

More people entering on a sunny day changes the ranking of every woman who follows. It is also really easy to cheat and cut corners on many routes, should anyone wish to do so, so this also changes the ranking of every woman who follows. There are many factors that will affect individual results, it just feels like people are trying to push their own agenda in this instance and risk a result where only individual results are given.

And with regards to opposing gender neutral toilets, I meant that I don't think all toilets should automatically be unisex or gender neutral, but rather male, female and, where possible, a third unisex / gender neutral option.

One man taking a woman's place will shift me down from 4/5/6 in my age group to 5/6/7. And that's one too many. He can shuffle over to the men's stats.

Even one transwoman (and there are hundreds competing in the UK alone, according some figures, which imo is an epidemic, not 'few' or 'very few') competing changes the ranking for EVERY woman that follows.

Every woman.

oppose gender neutral toilets

What do you mean by that? Do you mean you prefer unisex, or you think transwomen should go in female facilities?

To those whinging about your age grade or position being affected by the very few trans women who decide not only to compete but to also then cheat by entering under their gender rather than sex: there are nowhere near enough cases of this to affect the age grading (averaged from a huge number of runners); qnd your running position is going to be far more greatly affected by the weather, simply because when it is dry and sunny, more people turn up to run. In 14 years of attending Parkrun over many different locations, I have yet to be impacted in any way by a trans woman possibly entering. And if it makes any difference to how you perceive my bias on this stance, I both oppose gender neutral toilets and have worked with 3 trans colleagues in the last year alone - 2 of whom I like and one who I believe to be a PITA, which is down to their personalities, rather than sexualities.

So you're not outraged enough to stop enjoying Parkrun yourself, just outraged enough to no longer volunteer so that others can do so?

I filled in the survey. Made the point that although I love my weekly parkrun for the chance to be part of a community and catch up with my new running friends, I no longer volunteer. I refuse to give discretionary effort to organisations that treat my sex with contempt.