Parkrunners! Parkrun survey

@Helleofabore From the parkrun website:
In all countries we operate in, parkrunners can record their gender as male or female, or alternatively they are free to keep that information private by selecting “prefer not to say”.
Further, in the majority of parkrun countries we also offer a fourth option of “another gender identity”.

https://support.parkrun.com/hc/en-us/articles/360005339137-1-3-Gender-categorisation#:~:text=In%20all%20countries%20we%20operate,of%20“another%20gender%20identity”.

Most men couldn't give a monkeys, but most women could. They don't say so, though, because they know they'll get accused of being transphobic/obsessed/whatever.

Note: a phobia is an irrational fear. People are not irrationally scared of trans people. In fact they don't fear them at all. They just don't want male bodied people skewing results, podiums and sporting chances for female bodied people.

With parkrun, the issue really came to peoples' notice because some trans women were holding female course records at individual parkruns.

@Helleofabore I used the word 'whinge', as a verb, once and then apologised for doing so. You have repeatedly referred to this. I have not dismissed you. I have asked you exactly what needs are compromised and you haven't answered 🤷🏻‍♀️

I think it became clear from you declaring women who felt different to you were whingers that you simply dismissed what women were saying. But you continue to do you. At least you have stopped denigrating those who disagree with you.

And your suggestion was that anyone who disagrees with you should start their own run.

That is interesting stretched. So for those male people who want to run and who respect that female people should have their times comparable to only other female runners have a third option so they don’t have to run as a male runner?

Not 'female people', generally. I, and many other women, don't feel in any way compromised. Nor do I feel that my voluntary efforts have been in vain. I only offered starting a parkrun to you, specifically, as you feel upset about things and that your 'needs' aren't being met. I thought this might be a practical solution to help you - something you already said that I haven't offered you. What I have asked, but you have failed to answer, is what very specific 'needs' are not being met currently. I'm afraid I can't help you without this, but I think it's becoming clear that that's not what you want from this.

And just for clarity, I was referring to the fact that it is female people who have dared state that they as runners in parkrun have felt that they have been dismissed by the organisers of parkrun to prioritise male runners and that like other groups, clubs and services the women who volunteered and assisted in the building of that group, club or service are the ones expected to leave and start again. This is a pattern that seems to be becoming the norm. And it seems parkrun is following suit.

Parkrun can remove the sex from a runner so they run as neutral. They have started doing it.

So here is an alternative view. It was only very recently that parkrun doubled down on this issue and stopped showing course records in the UK after complaints. Is this correct?

Therefore there are some women on this thread that have contributed their time and efforts in building park run as it has been built to be now. And they are the ones being dismissed as whingers and are now being told to go start their own runs.

Sure, people can and probably will end up starting their own organised runs. But this suggestion does highlight the broader issue quite well. Thanks for making it.

I don’t believe I mentioned age grading at all except to point out that other points had been raised. Perhaps you have me confused with other people you called whingers. Maybe we all have blended together.

@Helleofabore I guess another option that might work for you would be to start a parkrun yourself? There is some good advice here:

blog.parkrun.com/uk/2019/04/10/how-do-you-start-a-parkrun/

The chance of a TW both entering and entering as a female is probably quite low (like I said, not encountered this in 14 years across many parkruns myself) but, should this happen and compromise your 'needs', you could then, as RD, have a direct discussion with the individual about it? It's a tough role but when the vast majority of people are supportive, it can be very rewarding.

Completely agree. I look at my own personal time and the age grading, none of which are remotely affected. I barely ever look at the ranking- the number of park runners differs wildly every week!

But we're not talking about sport in general, we're discussing, very specifically, Parkrun. You mention women's 'needs' without saying exactly what they are relative to this situation. You've mentioned age grading and ranking and we've explored how age grading is completely unaffected and how ranking is affected by numerous things. Not 'wanting' people to cheat in any way is completely understandable: no one wants that. But, as a woman, I don't feel that my Parkrun 'needs' are currently being compromised. I think Parkrun is a phenomenal organisation, run entirely by volunteers, that is overwhelmingly benefiting so many people. I don't feel anyone owes me anything - I'm grateful that it exists, which is why I also volunteer, to give back and help it continue.

Lovely. Now prioritising female people in sport on a feminist board is a ‘trans obsession’.

So, I will ask the question again, how many women have to be unhappy before their needs are prioritised over keeping some male people happy?

Most people couldn't give a flying shit, yet you continue to dismiss them, and think that your trans obsession is more valid?

And yet, female runners are telling you that they are not happy and you continue to dismiss them.

@Helleofabore

"It is not just age grading that people are talking about, they are also talking about ranking. The very results that Parkrun publish on the respective websites and what they send out.

Or is not a valid argument and people are just 'whinging' some more?"

No, really happy to discuss ranking too, if you like. This week I was told in my email that I was the ninth female out of a field of 140 total parkrunners. Looking at the Parkrun results page will show me that I was ranked 36 overall. So 35 people ahead of me - male and female but no longer any way to filter this on the website so I actually have no idea who was male, who was female, nor how many females entered in total.

The previous week I got a similar time but went to a massive parkrun, so I was told I was the 100+ female. My ranking went down massively because there were more total entrants.

Once I finished in the top 5 but the weather was rubbish so not many people turned up. I know from both my time and age grading, however, that I actually got a PB and did pretty well overall against others in my age category.

This is why I'm struggling to see how a TW entering as a female skews my ranking any more than any of the other factors I've just mentioned. Surely I'd need to be running with exactly the same people at the same Parkrun every single week for this to be the case and for me to deduce any meaningful correlation between my ranking and my ability / progress?

It is not just age grading that people are talking about, they are also talking about ranking. The very results that Parkrun publish on the respective websites and what they send out.

Or is not a valid argument and people are just 'whinging' some more?

"I think trying to find people and highlight them on social media because you believe them to be in the wrong category is a risky approach."

I am not talking about 'finding people on social media'. I am referring to the fact that runners already know who is entering the female category as a male because they are discussing it on social media.

There are people who are telling others they are negatively impacted on social media. Therefore, those athletes that have that information can report what they suspect to the organisers who should then have a process (one that Parkrun have agreed on) to investigate - if Parkrun changed their policy.

This requires that Parkrun actually prioritise female athletes needs over a group of male athletes' demands first. Because, I am certainly not suggesting any Parkrun group do anything unless Parkrun has changed the policy.

Surely, if male people fully understand that if they are ineligible to enter the female category then they will stop entering those runs. And if they don't stop, then they should expect whatever the policy will be.

"rather than through this university conducted survey about the positive impact of Parkrun on mental health?"

And surely if women are feeling that they have experienced negative impacts on their mental health because of these Parkrun policies, this survey is exactly the means to feed this back?

I apologise if my use of the word 'whinge' was too harsh. It was in response to people complaining that TW entering Parkrun as females affects age grading, which it does not. Trying to use this excuse does indeed feel like moaning for the sake of an agenda, without really understanding what age grading in Parkrun actually is.

@Helleofabore "The fact that female people do know when a male runner has been registered as a female runner, and they report this on social media, means that any of these male people identified as registering in the category they should not be eligible for. That is of course, if parkrun change this for the future.

So those people can simply be recategorised and placed in a uncategorised grouping. Same with any person who has been found to be registering in a category they are not eligible to be in, eg age.

So we are all just whingers. Good to know.

Aren’t you now whinging because someone didn’t come up with a solution that you feel works while you just deride those pointing out the issues instead of coming up with solutions of your own? Oh. That’s right, you don’t care."

It's not a case of not caring at all. In fact, I've agreed with you that people entering in any category other than the correct one for them IS cheating. Equally, I have expressed that I care about Parkrun: I care, as many people keep saying on here, that the more likely result of this issue could be that public results are scrapped completely. I care that this doesn't happen.

I haven't 'come up with a solution' of my own, because I don't personally feel, in 14 years of running and volunteering, that the impact of TW entering has been detrimental enough to risk changing the current format. As many people have pointed out, for example, TW entering does not influence age grading. I do feel that sex should be protected in professional, competitive sports, but that's not what Parkrun is.

Either a separate category or ensuring that people only enter via biological sex is a great, ideal aim. In reality, I think trying to find people and highlight them on social media because you believe them to be in the wrong category is a risky approach. You have suggested that the recategorising is 'simple': I don't believe that it is but, if you do, maybe that's something that you could volunteer to help with and take up with Parkrun directly, rather than through this university conducted survey about the positive impact of Parkrun on mental health?

You would think so. Yet we are whingers for expecting it.

Yes - fair sport for women really shouldn't be hard or controversial should it?

entering under their gender rather than sex: there are nowhere near enough cases of this to affect the age grading (averaged from a huge number of runners)

You can only enter parkrun in your gender category, as none other exist

The age grading will always be completely unaffected as it is calibrated against the world record times for the age and sex, and qualifying races for those are all held under international athletics rules

(And toilets at parkrun are those provided by each landowner, and indeed they do not have to be provided at all. So if the toilet issue is seen icw parkrun, that's nothing to do with parkrun policy and would have to be taken up locally with the individual provider. The 5k app is good at showing which parkruns have loos - does it better than the parkrun website, I find - and which don't, if availability is important to a runner considering a new course. But there's no info on how the loos are laid out)

We could also add in that the survey is actually assessing the positive impact on mental health - Parkrun is so overwhelmingly positive that it just feels like you could pick your battles

Yes, the positive, mental health aspect of a free, Saturday morning fun run for all is by far the most beneficial aspect.

Ok, @teawamutu I don't think we will quite align views here, which is ok.

I'm sorry that you see volunteering as being 'a mug' and don't see that the ones who benefit from your 'labour' are your fellow runners (all of them) but I do hope that you continue to enjoy running each week because, as we do both agree, on the whole it is a wonderful thing.