So what exactly is gender?

XChrome · 2024-10-08T20:14:08+00:00

I'm still waiting for [redacted], to explain in depth what gender is. According to many people, it's a feeling, a self-perception, which they are labelling as gender. My question would be; how do the people who are using this label for a feeling know that the label they are giving it is accurate? How do they know it's not just the result of being socialized into believing certain feelings or interests signify that one is the gender that society has deemed corresponds to those feelings and interests? I genuinely want to know, because I have never had this feeling in my life. I can perceive only my biological sex. I have always regarded my self-perception as the result of my individual personality and experiences, not about either gender or biological sex. However, many of those experiences are sex specific, so biological sex does play into it in that sense. Can anybody answer this question about what gender is? Can you describe the feeling and explain how you know what it signifies? Please note that this is not a goading post. I'm not looking for an argument, just an explanation. Thanks. [Post edited by MNHQ to remove tag]

Original poster

XChrome · 10/10/2024 20:20

ParrotPirouette · 10/10/2024 19:19

Yes, if I had encouraged him and taken him to the doctor he might have been swept up in the ideology.
Fortunately I have always been gender critical and firmly believe that sex is biological and immutable.
Hopefully post Cass we are heading in the right direction? Might be wishful thinking.

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I wonder if the tide is starting to turn, at least in the UK. This is one of the reasons I enjoy mumsnet so much. The GC movement is much more advanced in the UK than across the pond.

OP posts:

ParrotPirouette · 10/10/2024 19:19

XChrome · 10/10/2024 19:12

I'm so glad it turned out well for your son. What he went through is what worries me about the prevalence of genderist ideology among young people. The vulnerable ones are being socially pressured into developing these beliefs about themselves.

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Yes, if I had encouraged him and taken him to the doctor he might have been swept up in the ideology.
Fortunately I have always been gender critical and firmly believe that sex is biological and immutable.
Hopefully post Cass we are heading in the right direction? Might be wishful thinking.

Original poster

XChrome · 10/10/2024 19:12

ParrotPirouette · 10/10/2024 16:04

My son went through a phase when he was struggling with his social identity and thought that he might be transgender. I am very fortunate that we have a good relationship and he felt able to talk to me about it.

He was going through puberty; autistic and socially awkward. He struggled to make friends and felt alienated from his peer group. Text book stuff actually.
He felt more of an affinity with the girls in his school cohort; felt they were kinder, nicer to him and less aggressive in manner. He started to think that as he was ‘less aggressive’, ‘more caring’ etc then he was obviously female. He felt that he had a lot more in common with them.

We talked it through a lot. I know it could have had vastly different consequences but he’s 28 now, gay and happy in his skin.

Gender is just a social construct. There is no behaviour or action that is exclusively ‘male’ or ‘female’

I'm so glad it turned out well for your son. What he went through is what worries me about the prevalence of genderist ideology among young people. The vulnerable ones are being socially pressured into developing these beliefs about themselves.

OP posts:

ParrotPirouette · 10/10/2024 16:04

My son went through a phase when he was struggling with his social identity and thought that he might be transgender. I am very fortunate that we have a good relationship and he felt able to talk to me about it.

He was going through puberty; autistic and socially awkward. He struggled to make friends and felt alienated from his peer group. Text book stuff actually.
He felt more of an affinity with the girls in his school cohort; felt they were kinder, nicer to him and less aggressive in manner. He started to think that as he was ‘less aggressive’, ‘more caring’ etc then he was obviously female. He felt that he had a lot more in common with them.

We talked it through a lot. I know it could have had vastly different consequences but he’s 28 now, gay and happy in his skin.

Gender is just a social construct. There is no behaviour or action that is exclusively ‘male’ or ‘female’

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 10/10/2024 15:50

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 10/10/2024 15:48

Crikey

are you ok?

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I mean as noted above by Alison, rather than taking umbridge you could just….yanno…chat on this chat board

I am interested to talk about sex based vs gender based behaviour but you don’t seem to want to

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 10/10/2024 15:48

MonkeyToHeaven · 10/10/2024 13:07

Sock puppet frenzy

Crikey

are you ok?

TWETMIRF · 10/10/2024 13:26

I'm never sure if the 6 refers to the number of us on MN or in the whole world.

They say talking to yourself is the first sign of madness, does this apply to MN posts too?

AlisonDonut · 10/10/2024 13:24

I've been AWOL alot recently so down to 5.386.

Helleofabore · 10/10/2024 13:21

Is it still just the six of us?

AlisonDonut · 10/10/2024 13:10

MonkeyToHeaven · 10/10/2024 13:07

Sock puppet frenzy

If you think people are sock puppeting, you can report them to MNHQ. Just press the report button.

Or explain your argument like an adult?

MonkeyToHeaven · 10/10/2024 13:07

Sock puppet frenzy

TwoLeftSocksWithHoles · 10/10/2024 11:50

I thought it was a male goose, or don't they have those any more? 🤔

duc748 · 10/10/2024 11:46

Just my impression. Don't want to get into a fight.

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 10/10/2024 11:45

duc748 · 10/10/2024 11:30

FWIW I think you guys were a bit harsh there. Not that anyone need give a shit what I think, obviously.

I tried to engage but the poster didn’t seem to want to talk about sex based behavioural differences (which I 100% believe are a thing at population level)

I’m not sure they’d thought things through very well and they weren’t interested in taking to refine their views <shrug>

Ereshkigalangcleg · 10/10/2024 11:34

In what sense? From what I saw the poster accused people of posting responses from ChatGPT and suggested it was "unfortunate" that they couldn't have a brain transplant.

duc748 · 10/10/2024 11:30

FWIW I think you guys were a bit harsh there. Not that anyone need give a shit what I think, obviously.

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 10/10/2024 11:26

MonkeyToHeaven · 10/10/2024 09:36

Because the OP was asking what gender was and it provided an example of a possible biological explanation for some of what we assume is mostly a social construct.

I get the feeling that your trans hostility is clouding your objectivity and it's pointless discussing it further.

Bye now.

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Oh well that seems like a comprehensive reply that will really get people thinking

Ereshkigalangcleg · 10/10/2024 10:12

Not that they've really said anything much before that. I've just gone back and read all the posts.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 10/10/2024 10:11

I assume that last post was the poster's final flourish now they don't have anything further they can say about "gendered brains" @OldCrone

OldCrone · 10/10/2024 10:06

MonkeyToHeaven · 10/10/2024 09:36

Because the OP was asking what gender was and it provided an example of a possible biological explanation for some of what we assume is mostly a social construct.

I get the feeling that your trans hostility is clouding your objectivity and it's pointless discussing it further.

Bye now.

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Did you explain what gender is in response to the OP's request? I must have missed that post.

Who is the 'we' you keep referring to in your posts? You and who else assume that differing behaviour between the sexes is "mostly a social construct"?

There have been many posts on here commenting on the differences in behaviour between the sexes, such as men being more violent than women in all societies, indicating that this is likely an innate difference rather than a socially constructed one.

What do you mean by 'trans hostility'? Is it because I don't believe that people can be 'born in the wrong body' and have an opposite sex brain to the rest of their body? This is just self-evident scientific fact.

MonkeyToHeaven · 10/10/2024 09:36

OldCrone · 09/10/2024 21:25

there is evidence that girls who have been exposed to higher levels of androgens in the womb prefer toys typically categorised as boy's toys.

I read the article you linked to. This is what it says about that:

This study found that girls with congenital adrenal hyperplasia (CAH), who are exposed in utero to unusually high levels of androgens (the group of steroid hormones that include testosterone), show a reduced tendency to mimic the behaviour of women and “obey” gender labels.

This may explain the greater interest of girls with CAH in “boy toys”

It's specifically about girls with CAH, which is a disorder affecting the body's ability to produce hormones.

It also says this:

In other words, sex affects the brain, but this doesn’t mean that there are two distinct types of brains – “male brains” and “female brains”.

But I'm not sure why you think it's so important to find a 'cause' for some people not conforming to stereotypical gender norms.

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Because the OP was asking what gender was and it provided an example of a possible biological explanation for some of what we assume is mostly a social construct.

I get the feeling that your trans hostility is clouding your objectivity and it's pointless discussing it further.

Bye now.

DeanElderberry · 10/10/2024 08:11

Gender used to be a polite way to say sex

Only from the mid 1990s. Gender for anything other than grammar wasn't used outside academic writing until the mid 1980s. I remember the first time a colleague wondered whether to use 'gender' instead of 'sex' of a form he was designing - that was in 2003 and we all thought he was nuts.

AlisonDonut · 10/10/2024 07:53

Monkey - what is your actual argument? Can you have a think and rephrase it so that we can understand what it is you are trying to say?

CarolinaWren · 09/10/2024 21:42

Alittlebitwary · 08/10/2024 21:50

I had always thought (until recently) that gender meant male or female biologically, and this has always stemmed (for me, anyway) from babies for example hearing people ask what gender a newborn baby is etc - who obviously cannot have any societal ideas or beliefs or roles etc influencing this because, well, they're babies! When people have "gender reveals" it's always clearly meant revealing the biological sex of the baby - boy or girl. Putting this here because I wonder how many have always thought the same as this, and if so have we always been wrong about it/ has it always had a different meaning, or is it only recently that the meaning has changed to represent other things that aren't related to the physical biological sex?
It's a genuinely interesting thread tbh.

Same here. Gender used to be a polite way to say sex, one that didn't imply sexual intercourse. At some point gender started to be defined as gender stereotypes, which was definitely not the definition years ago.

OldCrone · 09/10/2024 21:25

MonkeyToHeaven · 09/10/2024 21:10

Ok. Young kids play. Obviously it's a massively socially influenced area, inescapably so. But, there is evidence that girls who have been exposed to higher levels of androgens in the womb prefer toys typically categorised as boy's toys.

There could be other explanations for this preference of course, and this suggest an interesting one.

https://theconversation.com/how-we-inherit-masculine-and-feminine-behaviours-a-new-idea-about-environment-and-genes-82524

Show quote history

there is evidence that girls who have been exposed to higher levels of androgens in the womb prefer toys typically categorised as boy's toys.

I read the article you linked to. This is what it says about that:

This study found that girls with congenital adrenal hyperplasia (CAH), who are exposed in utero to unusually high levels of androgens (the group of steroid hormones that include testosterone), show a reduced tendency to mimic the behaviour of women and “obey” gender labels.

This may explain the greater interest of girls with CAH in “boy toys”

It's specifically about girls with CAH, which is a disorder affecting the body's ability to produce hormones.

It also says this:

In other words, sex affects the brain, but this doesn’t mean that there are two distinct types of brains – “male brains” and “female brains”.

But I'm not sure why you think it's so important to find a 'cause' for some people not conforming to stereotypical gender norms.