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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Jon Sopel's new book

38 replies

southbiscay · 08/10/2024 18:50

In Jon Sopel's new book ''Strangeland', he has a reasonably lengthy section on what he calls the trans debate. Overall it's well written and seems to largely understand the issue. He is extremely supportive of (ex colleague) Hannah Barnes and the Cass Review. I only had two issues - firstly the use of wrong sex pronouns for trans identified people. Asking 'where should she go?' evokes a different emotional response to asking 'where should he go?' (as expounded by Barracker in the 'Pronouns are Rohypnol' piece)

Secondly, he repeatedly says that he can't understand why, when trans identified people make up such a tiny percentage of the population, it is seemingly such a big issue, completely missing the fact that allowing men to be considered women has the potential to affect 51 percent of the population.

OP posts:
DrBlackbird · 08/10/2024 20:39

Very bored of liberal men wailing it’s all soooo hard to understand why it’s an issue when it’s blindingly obvious that redefining women to mean adult human females and men with lady feels affects 51% of the population

Echoing this^ but it also goes to show just exactly how little brain power/thinking space that men give to women’s lives. Even intelligent and ‘enlightened’ men do not give a nano thought how policy or behaviour or design or practices might impact women.

QAOPspaceman · 08/10/2024 19:59

southbiscay · 08/10/2024 19:50

Indeed theeyeballsinthesky
At one point he says "it's all so complicated" and I'm listening in the car and shouting "it's not in the slightest bit bloody complicated!"

The only thing that makes it complicated is if you give primacy to the ethereal, shifting, regressive and frankly batshit unverifiable notion of gender identity over the established, scientific, verifiable fact of sex. Stop doing that and it is no longer complicated in the slightest.

This; a milliion times, this

southbiscay · 08/10/2024 19:50

Indeed theeyeballsinthesky
At one point he says "it's all so complicated" and I'm listening in the car and shouting "it's not in the slightest bit bloody complicated!"

The only thing that makes it complicated is if you give primacy to the ethereal, shifting, regressive and frankly batshit unverifiable notion of gender identity over the established, scientific, verifiable fact of sex. Stop doing that and it is no longer complicated in the slightest.

OP posts:
duc748 · 08/10/2024 19:38

And as has been pointed out, if you're under pressure in the witness-box when that happens...

RethinkingLife · 08/10/2024 19:33

JoodyBlueToo · 08/10/2024 19:15

I can't actually read pieces that use female pronouns for males. I find I shut down and can't continue. I actually can't parse the piece, as I am forever reading "she" and translating it in my head to "he". It is exhausting. But incorrect pronoun use means I doubt everything else the person has written. It feels like being in a building without foundations and I lack respect for the author thereafter.

Not much value add to this conversation really. Except I have to say it somewhere. Maybe it strikes a chord.

I heard a well-known GC recently say with regard to this "I can hold two thoughts in my head at once" arguing for the use of preferred pronouns. I am not actually sure that is true for most people.

I regularly experience several streams of thought at once. I would never deny that it comes at a cognitive cost and it takes substantial effort to separate and voice them.

ETA: I'd end up preferring not to speak than to run the risk of making an error in a setting where it would lead to a brouhaha and derail the actual meeting/event/conversation that involved thinking about pronouns.

duc748 · 08/10/2024 19:29

It's not bloody hard to understand at all, and possession of a penis should not make understanding it any more difficult.

Theeyeballsinthesky · 08/10/2024 19:21

Secondly, he repeatedly says that he can't understand why, when trans identified people make up such a tiny percentage of the population, it is seemingly such a big issue, completely missing the fact that allowing men to be considered women has the potential to affect 51 percent of the population.

so he hasn’t bothered himself to understand- he could have spoken to Hannah Barnes who I’m sure would have enlightened him

Very bored of liberal men wailing it’s all soooo hard to understand why it’s an issue when it’s blindingly obvious that redefining women to mean adult human females and men with lady feels affects 51% of the population

Toseland · 08/10/2024 19:21

allowing men to be considered women has the potential to affect 51 percent of the population.
It affects the entire population and also removes rights and safeguarding for over 51% of the population as children are affected too.
It has as much of an impact as declaring North is now also South, or black is now white i.e. it completely destroys society and systems and customs we have built.
Imagine doing that with #nodebate at all.

popeydokey · 08/10/2024 19:21

duc748 · 08/10/2024 19:01

Except that 'man' isn't really being re-defined, is it? It's only the definition of 'woman' that's up for debate, it seems. A point which really isn't hammered home often enough, I think.

Not only that, but neither are actually being 'redefined' as no definition is ever put forward. It's just "woman doesn't mean female!"
("Apart from when we say there are genders that match sexes - then it does")

JoodyBlueToo · 08/10/2024 19:15

I can't actually read pieces that use female pronouns for males. I find I shut down and can't continue. I actually can't parse the piece, as I am forever reading "she" and translating it in my head to "he". It is exhausting. But incorrect pronoun use means I doubt everything else the person has written. It feels like being in a building without foundations and I lack respect for the author thereafter.

Not much value add to this conversation really. Except I have to say it somewhere. Maybe it strikes a chord.

I heard a well-known GC recently say with regard to this "I can hold two thoughts in my head at once" arguing for the use of preferred pronouns. I am not actually sure that is true for most people.

duc748 · 08/10/2024 19:01

Except that 'man' isn't really being re-defined, is it? It's only the definition of 'woman' that's up for debate, it seems. A point which really isn't hammered home often enough, I think.

popeydokey · 08/10/2024 18:56

Yes, you have to be wilfully dim not to grasp that redefining what "man" and "woman" mean affects everyone.

I get the impression that wrong sex pronouns are there to head off the focus being "he used the wrong pronouns" - I'm somewhat sympathetic even though I agree with your point.

Redshoeblueshoe · 08/10/2024 18:54

The second point outweighs the first.
He just doesn't give a shit