Kemi Badenoch

There was a referendum in 1975.

your point is ?

What are his principles. What is his vision? Can you clearly articulate it?

Traditional Labour voters are thoroughly disappointed with him.

I'm a traditional Labour voter and 12 weeks in to a 4 year government is too early to judge. Time will tell and he hasn't had that.

I'm not disappointed with how the riots were handled, or the GP and train drivers strikes.

Yes, it's this.

The maternity pay comments were really not a good look for her, while so many women are struggling on SMP.

A lot of ex Labour voters also voted Reform. It is not just about middle class people in the shires, but about working class people in the cities.

Lockdown radicalised a lot of working class people. They don't like the state dictating to them how they live their lives. Telling them what they can or cannot say; telling them where they can or cannot go, and trying to socially shame people for not being vaccinated and so on. They know that men cannot become women.

Starmer did not run rings around anyone. He's not capable. Even natural Labour voters find him utterly inadequate. In trying to move to the supoosed centre he no longer seems to stand for anything. It is just a load of fudge and waffle.
Traditional Labour voters are thoroughly disappointed with him, and many despise him. They want him to articulate clear Left/Socialist values and vision - but he doesn't and can't.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-69066785

If you think Starmer has no vision or principles you aren't listening.

Not you...the Conservative party. Merely venting anger and saying " fuck" does not offer much. Principles and vision are important. Part of Starmer's problem is that he doesn't have any. Not that people can notice, anyway. And the Tories problem has become that they no longer are clearly articulating any over-riding vision beyond 'Stop the Boats'.

I'm not a natural conservative voter, but I'd suggest the principles are probably along the lines of 'Self improvement' 'personal responsibility', 'Family values', the individiual before the state, social cohesion via a route of strong values based upon social democratic principles and cultural integrity.....and so on.

The section of Tory voters who would have been pro Kemi Badenoch have now seen Reform doing all the Kemi stuff better and have switched their allegiance to Farage's bunch.

She picked a niche, Reform nicked it from her and are doing it more bluntly to an eager audience who above all else want the blunt instrument, single issue, 'speaks the ordinary man's truth' approach.

The Tory party have been and remain a squabbling, self serving, venal organisation with a proven, 14 year, record of utter failure, lies and corruption. They've systematically worsened the life of everyone living in this country except the very rich.

As for she/them holding Starmer to account - well when he was in opposition watching him run rings around all Tory comers at PMQ was a thing to watch. They just don't have the calibre of person who can hold his feet to the fire. He's better at it than all of them.

If they doesn't find the centre line, attract competent politicians and set out a clear, united, sensible, decent path forward they're finished and she with them.

We have a lot of party activists on here since trans issues made feminists a viable voting target. The change from FWR pre-2020 is very noticeable.

Badenoch is undoubtedly the most articulate and intelligent contender the Tories have. She is also an absolute loon on economics who would make Thatcher look like Corbyn.

As you noted, demographically, FPTP is irreparably broken. And the way it's broken won't favour the Tories who will wish they hadn't poo-pooed the chance to change it in 2011.

There was a referendum in 2011. The british public rejected proportional representation. By about 70% as far as i remember.

I think it all depends on who is in the final two. I gather that Badenoch is very popular with the Tory membership, and if she's in the final two, she is likely to win. However, she is less popular among MPs, and they might club together to make sure she's not in the final two (ie Jenrick supporters might lend their votes to Cleverly to make sure he's in second place).

My own view on Badenoch is that she has been one of the very few Tories to be absolutely clear and unequivocal on the issue of gender self-ID. So in that sense I think she's quite brave - she has stood up for what she believes in, which is more than you can say for the rest of them. On the other hand, she does seem to have some pretty unpalatable right-wing policies which I'm less enthused about.

She’s just what the Conservative Party needs. She’d make mincemeat of Two Tier Freebie Kier and Ange as Leader of the Opposition.

Kemi Badenoch is one of the most impressive, clear and articulate MPs I’ve heard lately. The party has a great weapon here but will they be brave enough to use it.

I just have.

Why, why do you think the core conservative principles are. And (much more pointedly) is that what the conservative party itself thinks ?

This is where single issues can scupper logic - as pointed out upthread by others.

I said re-articulate; get back to core values which have become submerged or lost in more recent years.

It is not just Labour voters, though, is it....it is those who voted Lib Dem rather than vote Tory, as well as those who voted Reform. A lot of people lent their vote to Labour for the first time because they hoped Labour would improve their lives after the struggle of the last few years.

A lot of Labour voters spolied their ballots or voted for more radical Left candidates; and a good number also voted Green. They are probably lost for good.

The electorate is no longer as predictable as it once was.

I think the Tories need to be able to re-articulate core conservative principles and go forward from there. What is the vision - and in a positive sense. What are the core values?

You tell me. From 2010-2014 all I saw was "fuck the poor. Are you ill ? Sorry about that. Need childcare ? Here's some places you can pay for it (run by our mates). Crime ? Well if it's crime you want we have lots of that. Infrastructure ? What's that ? Can you spell it please ? No we don't do that. Hey, look at these taxes ! Are you old and rich ? Great ! Old and poor - fuck off. Are you young and rich ? Great. Young and poor - fuck off".

Seems to cover it.

I think the Tories need to be able to re-articulate core conservative principles and go forward from there. What is the vision - and in a positive sense. What are the core values?

Jenrick is too caught up in trying to capture what he imagines Reform voters care about. Kemi, on the other hand, very much focuses on fundamentals and principles. She's an engineer. She's interested in how things work and in systems.

Cleverly has more of an appealing, all round persona...but he doesn't seem to articulate any key ideas other than about being "nice and normal".

It is difficult to know what Starmer's Labour principles are...I don't think Starmer knows himself. He's not a natural political creature.And In five years the world will look quite different.

Fuck core conservative principles. They need to identify some voters first. Disillusioned Labour voters are not automatic Tory votes by a long stretch. Not in a country which - despite the noise - is still predominantly mildly centre-right.

Besides, we all know what core conservative principles are - that is their problem. We saw very clearly 2010-2024 that core conservative principles do not involve anything making life better for the average person and everything making life richer for Tory chums.

As you noted, demographically, FPTP is irreparably broken. And the way it's broken won't favour the Tories who will wish they hadn't poo-pooed the chance to change it in 2011.

Maybe some do.....but personally I quite like her directness on a range of issues....even if she is too ideological on economics for my taste.

Oh she undoubtedly will. Sniping from the sidelines and ensuring there is never a "Tory party" but 2 separate parties locked in a death struggle.

Whoever does "win" will then have their metaphorical balls in exactly the same vice Sunak did where they can't enforce discipline because it will lead to a leadership challenge, so will be forced to put up with the drip drip of "I would have done it better" - mainly from dear Kemi, but I can't see Cleverly or Jenrick keeping quiet either.

Still anything that keeps the Tories shrinking into nothing can't be that bad. And it's not like they didn't ask for it. They laid out a red carpet, called it "Sir" and offered it a hand shandy. No need to feel sorry for them.