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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

How do you support other siblings when a teen decides they are trans

663 replies

Autumnleavesareslippery · 07/10/2024 09:13

I've name changed for this, have been a member for 19 years since pregnant with DS. I'm going to try and be factual as I'm in shock and dealing with a whole host of mine and my children's emotions. Yes I'm using 'he' here as none of us have got our heads around this. I'm trying to be very honest in how I feel and really need some support from people who have more of an idea about how to handle this than me.

DS (19) came home from uni on Friday. On Friday night at about 11 pm in the family chat he declared he was transgender. He informed us what he was called. It was an unusual name choice for a 19 year old - that of someone perhaps born 150 years ago. Think Enid. He told us he'd known for years.

All of us were in shock. I have DD (17) and DD and DS (both 14). I sent a message privately to him thanking for letting us know as I wasn't quite sure what else to say. He didn't read it and remained in his room. Didn't even bother with the usual teen response of a thumbs up.

Saturday and Sunday he acted completely normally, like nothing major had happened and he had told us he was vegetarian now or something. He seemed calm and relaxed. He looked exactly the same - a 6ft 2 broad shouldered man.

He then came downstairs to get a lift to the train station dressed as what I can only describe as a stereotype of what someone might think a woman looked like. Badly done make up. An odd dress that didn't fit. And started talking in a completely different soft 'feminine' voice and doing strange things with his hands that he must have deemed 'female'. He had lace like gloves on. It looked so outdated and strange.

The best way to describe it was he looked like Dame Edna or the character out of little Britain from 20 years ago in that the clothing was odd and it seemed almost designed to get a reaction. But he appeared to be deadly serious and nonchalant about it. A woman would have been clearly mocked if she dressed like it. It just leaves me wondering whether this is what he views women as?! Not that he knows any women who would act like this - he's surrounded by many women who express themselves in multiple ways but not in an Edwardian lady about to collapse way.

I drove him to the station trying to make small talk about the weather and his course and came back to everyone sat staring in disbelief. He's never said anything, acted in any way 'feminine' (whatever that means). He's at a RG uni, studying a science subject with 3 As at A level, and has organised himself a part time job. I only say this because life seems to be going well for him, rather than a potential response to something.

He is however autistic.

DD 17 is furious and says he's making a mockery of women and that woman is not a costume. She says he better not be going in female only spaces.

DD 15 looks stunned and keeps asking why he thinks he can just become a woman and what he thinks that means. She can't identify out of periods etc etc. DS 15 is laughing in disbelief. DH just looks completely confused and keeps muttering about getting loads of tattoos when he wanted to shock his parents thirty five years ago.

I genuinely don't know what to do next. Please bear in mind I'm in shock, had only just 'got over' my first born leaving for uni and all the emotions that brings.

I want to support DS19 with whatever gender expression he wants. When he still looked like him (and didn't appear to be 'dressed as' a mockery of women) I was shocked but we just thought ok, this is him experimenting with finding himself or whatever. But now I'm really worried about him and his future and whether others will look at him and think wtf. I'm also angry at the very (sorry to stereotype) 'teen boy' way he told us - late at night, no response, informing us what he was called rather than perhaps asking 'could you call me'. No consideration of the impact but I guess that might just be being 19.

I agree with what both of my daughters are saying. How do I say this because it then directly criticises DS? Do I accept he is an adult, has made his choices and my care and focus should be on them? I can't gaslight them and tell them they're wrong.

I'm now worried he's going to go into female spaces, as a clearly visible six foot plus male. This would make me angry.

He is at a university where I know lots of his lecturers (I am an academic in the same field). I know many are gender critical. Do I mention it to them first or let it be the elephant in the room?

I don't know what to say to my 85 year old mother. I think she will be very shocked and worried. I'm trying to work out if we have to tell her (she doesn't live nearby).

I don't know how much to talk to him or challenge this. I feel a kind of grief. I'm worried he's going to take hormones or do something irreversible.

We all dislike the name / think it's a very odd choice - which makes me feel very alienated from him.

And at the end of the day he's my 'baby' - I want him to be happy. I don't want people to criticise him. I want to support him but how do you do that when you question so much what he is doing? It wasn't the fact he declared himself to have a different gender but rather what followed - the declaration of name, strange clothing and fear of him going in women's spaces.

I also do absolutely realise he is an adult and can make his own choices and face the consequences. He has his own life (albeit he's being financially supported by us).

I guess it was just so sudden.

Any advice on what to do next would be gladly received.

OP posts:
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9
CautiousLurker · 09/10/2024 14:52

PrimalLass · 09/10/2024 14:46

Doctors is right up there in manipulative wokery.

And straight out of the BBC woke studios. Hardly cutting edge or representative of prevailing public opinion. Which might be why it’s been axed and this is the last season….

RedToothBrush · 09/10/2024 14:50

PrettyPickle · 09/10/2024 14:35

Did anyone watch "Doctors" today seems I am not alone in my belief that everyone should be able to follow their own path. Male living as female, female living as male, people choosing to be single etc....for all those different lifestyle choices, there are winners and losers, I have never minimised that. Its called living and learning from life experiences.

And now I will sign off this thread, not because I need to think over my wrong doings because you are pretty nasty, aggressive bunch (apologies to those who are not)

So a TV programme which almost certainly has taken advice from an organisation with a particular agenda to push on a certain subject, is your go to reasonable reference point. You think, after everything that's happened in the last couple of years with EDI training and Stonewall law that's is totally, utterly unbiased and reliable source of knowledge which is completely trustworthy and reflective of all positions and doesn't have any blind spots at all

Embrace your tone deafness because it's legitimised by a fucking BBC Daytime Soap!

😂🙈🙉🙊

Dear lord. God love you naïvety and lack of critical thinking skills.

Hey ladies of the thread we are all wrong, 'cos this is on Doctors.'

Could we possibly be anymore patronised?! Trying hard to think how.

AreTheyOrArentThey · 09/10/2024 14:48

@SophiaCohle
But the people who really get up my nose are the ones who like to declare "well, I'd be telling him straight I don't want any of that gender crap in my house". Yeah, sure you would, if it was your child about to head out of the door and into the rainy night, with no idea if they would ever be back.

This is why it's such a hard balancing act for families, because at the start you're tempering your alarm with misplaced tolerance, and then later, once you've educated yourself, you're tempering your hearfelt beliefs with love and fear of losing them.

100% this

PrimalLass · 09/10/2024 14:46

PrettyPickle · 09/10/2024 14:35

Did anyone watch "Doctors" today seems I am not alone in my belief that everyone should be able to follow their own path. Male living as female, female living as male, people choosing to be single etc....for all those different lifestyle choices, there are winners and losers, I have never minimised that. Its called living and learning from life experiences.

And now I will sign off this thread, not because I need to think over my wrong doings because you are pretty nasty, aggressive bunch (apologies to those who are not)

Doctors is right up there in manipulative wokery.

CautiousLurker · 09/10/2024 14:39

RedToothBrush · 09/10/2024 14:07

Its fascinating to see responses to women saying 'no this isn't ok, this has harmed me' and the attempts to silence and then backtrack/distance from supporting the bollocks thats causing harm.

Own what you say.

If you think that women saying they have been harmed by their siblings are lying and they should just deal with it and suck it up, OWN IT.

Don't try to pretend you aren't part of the problem and aren't trying to push this and manipulate parent/siblings in a guilt trip.

You absoluetely are doing harm.

I've explain why at length.

Or responses to women saying ‘no this isn’t ok, this is harming my other children’ - it seems they are not the chosen ones, so their needs are not worth considering in the face of the stunning and brave trans person. 🤦🏽‍♀️

ColinTheGenderMinotaur · 09/10/2024 14:37

I don’t think a daytime soap opera is the appropriate place to find answers to complex family situations, personally, @PrettyPickle

PrettyPickle · 09/10/2024 14:35

Did anyone watch "Doctors" today seems I am not alone in my belief that everyone should be able to follow their own path. Male living as female, female living as male, people choosing to be single etc....for all those different lifestyle choices, there are winners and losers, I have never minimised that. Its called living and learning from life experiences.

And now I will sign off this thread, not because I need to think over my wrong doings because you are pretty nasty, aggressive bunch (apologies to those who are not)

LegoTherapy · 09/10/2024 14:34

@Autumnleavesareslippery my younger children would have reacted the same and told him what utter nonsense it all was. I think my jaw would have dropped and I'd have asked if he was off to a fancy dress party and said he looked ridiculous and that I wasn't giving him a lift looking like that. I'm feeling feisty though so might be being harsher here than I would actually be in person. Everyone has the right to dress how they please but it sounds as though he has got some very messed up ideas and I wouldn't be tolerating any nonsense and would be questioning him along the lines of the regular threads on here eg what is a woman, what makes you think you're a woman, what makes a woman a woman, how are you not a man etc? I'm also ND and I suspect he's been exposed to some bollox at uni that he as a vulnerable young adult has taken on board without any critical analysis. Speaking of which I'd be asking how his beliefs align with his knowledge of science. I'd be enforcing that he should not be accessing female only spaces and that we can be whoever we want to be and not be defined by stereotypes but that doesn't make us the opposite sex. Might he be gay? Is trans more acceptable than gay to him?
Hugs to you OP and high fives to your GC children. It's heartening to hear of sense in the younger generation.

SophiaCohle · 09/10/2024 14:20

I think what has made gender ideology so insidious in society is that despite its intrinsic fascism it cleverly sucks in the liberal-minded, to whom the #bekind twaddle seems instinctively better than the opposite.

Personally, although I want to set straight anyone who terms transitioning a "lifestyle choice", it makes me less angry because I think such people are victims of it all too, likewise politicians, though imo they have less excuse for remaining ignorant, with better access to facts, figures, personal testimony etc. It's not a choice. They - and you - are being brainwashed.

But the people who really get up my nose are the ones who like to declare "well, I'd be telling him straight I don't want any of that gender crap in my house". Yeah, sure you would, if it was your child about to head out of the door and into the rainy night, with no idea if they would ever be back.

This is why it's such a hard balancing act for families, because at the start you're tempering your alarm with misplaced tolerance, and then later, once you've educated yourself, you're tempering your hearfelt beliefs with love and fear of losing them.

That's been my experience anyway.

The way trans ideology has evolved has been a masterclass in how to silence dissent. It's so important that Mumsnet continues to be a place we can discuss and debate it, and that we continue talking. This thread has been the best trans thread in ages.

ChishiyaBat · 09/10/2024 14:18

RedToothBrush · 09/10/2024 14:11

Threads like this are hard (won't go into why, but I'm not in a good place generally atm) but they are also useful and instructive.

Daylight and all that.

I am learning as much as I feel I can share my own insight on.

Lets be honest here. How much benefit am I going to get from a therapist who potentially is either compromised, fearful and defensive, ignorant or otherwise inexperienced on this subject?

I'm just not.

And actually I think thats useful to me to know.

I'm so sorry you are not doing well. I wish you all the best for the future. I am not a believer in therapy for myself, I would rather work it out on my own and gain strength for myself, I think therapy is overrated, but it can obviously be useful in some situations.

RedToothBrush · 09/10/2024 14:11

ChishiyaBat · 09/10/2024 14:06

That is exactly how it sounded to me which is why I asked the question!
Thank you for you insight on this thread, I really hope you are doing ok and your experiences can help the OP and others.

Threads like this are hard (won't go into why, but I'm not in a good place generally atm) but they are also useful and instructive.

Daylight and all that.

I am learning as much as I feel I can share my own insight on.

Lets be honest here. How much benefit am I going to get from a therapist who potentially is either compromised, fearful and defensive, ignorant or otherwise inexperienced on this subject?

I'm just not.

And actually I think thats useful to me to know.

RedToothBrush · 09/10/2024 14:07

Ereshkigalangcleg · 09/10/2024 13:51

I don't know what you have been reading but I have never said any of these things, I have never minimised the impact on the family, all I have done is asserted the young mans right to a lifestyle choice.

You came out with some sexist waffle and then when you were called out on it got defensive and attempted to patronise people.

Its fascinating to see responses to women saying 'no this isn't ok, this has harmed me' and the attempts to silence and then backtrack/distance from supporting the bollocks thats causing harm.

Own what you say.

If you think that women saying they have been harmed by their siblings are lying and they should just deal with it and suck it up, OWN IT.

Don't try to pretend you aren't part of the problem and aren't trying to push this and manipulate parent/siblings in a guilt trip.

You absoluetely are doing harm.

I've explain why at length.

ChishiyaBat · 09/10/2024 14:06

RedToothBrush · 09/10/2024 14:02

You make a really valid point about pickle seeing woman as nothing more than a costume that you can pick and choose and how we should respect this.

Its utterly vile and disrepectful to women. It suggests that women CHOSE to be discriminated against...

That is exactly how it sounded to me which is why I asked the question!
Thank you for you insight on this thread, I really hope you are doing ok and your experiences can help the OP and others.

RedToothBrush · 09/10/2024 14:02

ChishiyaBat · 09/10/2024 13:49

Do you think being a woman is a lifestyle choice?

I have followed this thread from the beginning, I have nothing to add except I don't think it is something you can begin to understand unless it has happened to you, so thank you to all who have shared their honest experiences.

You make a really valid point about pickle seeing woman as nothing more than a costume that you can pick and choose and how we should respect this.

Its utterly vile and disrepectful to women. It suggests that women CHOSE to be discriminated against...

Ereshkigalangcleg · 09/10/2024 13:51

I don't know what you have been reading but I have never said any of these things, I have never minimised the impact on the family, all I have done is asserted the young mans right to a lifestyle choice.

You came out with some sexist waffle and then when you were called out on it got defensive and attempted to patronise people.

ChishiyaBat · 09/10/2024 13:49

PrettyPickle · 09/10/2024 13:39

I don't know what you have been reading but I have never said any of these things, I have never minimised the impact on the family, all I have done is asserted the young mans right to a lifestyle choice.

Do you think being a woman is a lifestyle choice?

I have followed this thread from the beginning, I have nothing to add except I don't think it is something you can begin to understand unless it has happened to you, so thank you to all who have shared their honest experiences.

RedToothBrush · 09/10/2024 13:46

PrettyPickle · 09/10/2024 13:39

I don't know what you have been reading but I have never said any of these things, I have never minimised the impact on the family, all I have done is asserted the young mans right to a lifestyle choice.

Yeah sure you have...

Misogyny and mockery of women as a lifestyle choice we should all pander to.

I get you perfectly. I think you should go away from this thread and think about things. (Just like you've told the OP to do...)

Lovelyview · 09/10/2024 13:39

kolalumps · 09/10/2024 13:18

why do I keep “telling” OP … because we are on MN …

what is so wrong about talking honestly to your children. If your DC needs support is projecting an outward appearance which isn’t safe … why ignore them????

“you wouldn’t dream of helping” your child. Fine for you.

The op asked for help with supporting her other children who don't believe their brother is a woman. It is deeply inappropriate to suggest she indulges his perception he can be a woman by advising him on makeup and clothes. There have been so many helpful and supportive comments on this thread against which you stand out as utterly tone deaf.

PrettyPickle · 09/10/2024 13:39

RedToothBrush · 09/10/2024 12:21

No. It's you who is completely tone deaf and not even remotely listening to people telling you how their sibling transitioning harmed them psychologically.

I find it damn arrogant for posters like you to double down and tell the OP that they are wrong thinking or at risk of wrong thinking by even considering the impact on other family members.

It's appalling that on a thread where others have been silenced, have made a point about this continued trend to crush these conversations and are talking about the stigma of the subject, you try and shut down those ideas by telling the OP to step away from the thread and think about away from the influence of us!

Our lived experience and our honesty over some thing sensitive and difficult means fuck all to you and you have tampled all others trying to express this.

I don't know what you have been reading but I have never said any of these things, I have never minimised the impact on the family, all I have done is asserted the young mans right to a lifestyle choice.

kolalumps · 09/10/2024 13:18

Lovelyview · 09/10/2024 12:44

I wouldn't dream of 'helping' my teenage children (1 girl, 1 boy) with their looks. I think it's bizarre and intrusive for a parent to do this with any child above the age of 11 unless asked. I don't know why you keep telling the op to do this when her son is a young adult who hasn't asked her advice and whose suddenly announced 'trans' identity causes her deep concern.

why do I keep “telling” OP … because we are on MN …

what is so wrong about talking honestly to your children. If your DC needs support is projecting an outward appearance which isn’t safe … why ignore them????

“you wouldn’t dream of helping” your child. Fine for you.

EveningSpread · 09/10/2024 13:16

Hi OP. If you have time / inclination, you might consider having a look at Marjorie Garber’s book Vested Interests - it’s a way into the interesting history of cross dressing, culture and sexuality that’s informative but also quite balanced and measured.

Obviously what’s happening to you now is intensely personal and fraught. Knowledge is power, and armed with a lot of of knowledge of all the complicated practices, motivations and contexts of cross dressing might help you to continue to be balanced and non reactionary - and discuss things with your son in that way!

Garber isn’t really for or against cross dressing, but she’s interested in all the different ways it manifests and things it can mean. She’s a good, sceptical gender theorist of the 90s, before it all became about affirming everything anyone said, and losing sight of the distinction between sex and gender.

Like you I think some identity performances can reinforce regressive stereotypes - gender theorists of the 90s knew this!

DoreenonTill8 · 09/10/2024 13:01

RedToothBrush · 09/10/2024 12:53

It means 'learn and to enable and indulge their fantasy even if you don't agree with it'.

Agree. Very much "you will then have the wonderful eye opener of seeing "the true self"....

SophiaCohle · 09/10/2024 13:01

Tbf I think the pp may just have meant that if OP talks to her son about why he's dressing like a 1970s female impersonator, it may give her some useful insight into wtf is going on in his head.

I agree it came out as utterly patronising but a lot of the well-intentioned commentary from people not personally affected does.

RedToothBrush · 09/10/2024 12:53

Ereshkigalangcleg · 09/10/2024 12:48

I think you will learn what he sees, vs what you see, what others see.

What does this mean?

It means 'learn and to enable and indulge their fantasy even if you don't agree with it'.

Autumnleavesareslippery · 09/10/2024 12:50

thereitgoes · 09/10/2024 10:35

This is a really moving and important thread. @Autumnleavesareslippery , I'm afraid I don't have any meaningful advice - but I wanted to say that you seem like a great parent who is focused on supporting all of your children and taking the time to grapple with these complex issues. You've had some great advice here and I hope it helps as you navigate all this. Sending love.

There have been so many great posts on this thread but thank you to @SisterofMCW in particular. Someone close to me is in a similar situation to you - sibling transitioning from male to female. I have been trying to support him and would describe myself as gender-critical, although with the luxury of not having to think too hard about these issues so a good dose of 'be kind' can creep in.

It was like a lightning bolt when I read your post -- I am now ashamed to admit that I have generally used his brother's preferred (female) pronouns when discussing his brother now (although not when discussing their childhood etc. - e.g. "shall we invite her"). I suppose I was swaying too much there being no harm in respecting how someone wants to currently identify even if I privately don't believe them to be a woman. But now I just think what an idiot I've been - why on earth would I care so much about 'respecting someone' who isn't there and demonstrating how tolerant and balanced I am in this context. And how this action just shows how profoundly I don't get it and makes me complicit in the harm siblings tend to suffer. Thank you.

I think this part of your post is many of us "But now I just think what an idiot I've been - why on earth would I care so much about 'respecting someone' who isn't there and demonstrating how tolerant and balanced I am in this context."

We've been told we must support the transitioning person and most people will hear that and think 'yes of course, I support anyone to be whatever they want' (often with limitations of course about women's safe spaces). I myself felt that way. Why would it matter to me if a man wants to put on a dress and call himself Edna or whatever as long as he doesn't pose a threat?

But that's because the impact on others and everything people have so eloquently discussed in this thread isn't mentioned. Of course we don't want to do harm to someone but if they are acting in a way that harms or impacts upon others, that needs to be discussed too. All of this 'living my true self' is great but why are we not considering the impacts upon others too?

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