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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

How do you support other siblings when a teen decides they are trans

663 replies

Autumnleavesareslippery · 07/10/2024 09:13

I've name changed for this, have been a member for 19 years since pregnant with DS. I'm going to try and be factual as I'm in shock and dealing with a whole host of mine and my children's emotions. Yes I'm using 'he' here as none of us have got our heads around this. I'm trying to be very honest in how I feel and really need some support from people who have more of an idea about how to handle this than me.

DS (19) came home from uni on Friday. On Friday night at about 11 pm in the family chat he declared he was transgender. He informed us what he was called. It was an unusual name choice for a 19 year old - that of someone perhaps born 150 years ago. Think Enid. He told us he'd known for years.

All of us were in shock. I have DD (17) and DD and DS (both 14). I sent a message privately to him thanking for letting us know as I wasn't quite sure what else to say. He didn't read it and remained in his room. Didn't even bother with the usual teen response of a thumbs up.

Saturday and Sunday he acted completely normally, like nothing major had happened and he had told us he was vegetarian now or something. He seemed calm and relaxed. He looked exactly the same - a 6ft 2 broad shouldered man.

He then came downstairs to get a lift to the train station dressed as what I can only describe as a stereotype of what someone might think a woman looked like. Badly done make up. An odd dress that didn't fit. And started talking in a completely different soft 'feminine' voice and doing strange things with his hands that he must have deemed 'female'. He had lace like gloves on. It looked so outdated and strange.

The best way to describe it was he looked like Dame Edna or the character out of little Britain from 20 years ago in that the clothing was odd and it seemed almost designed to get a reaction. But he appeared to be deadly serious and nonchalant about it. A woman would have been clearly mocked if she dressed like it. It just leaves me wondering whether this is what he views women as?! Not that he knows any women who would act like this - he's surrounded by many women who express themselves in multiple ways but not in an Edwardian lady about to collapse way.

I drove him to the station trying to make small talk about the weather and his course and came back to everyone sat staring in disbelief. He's never said anything, acted in any way 'feminine' (whatever that means). He's at a RG uni, studying a science subject with 3 As at A level, and has organised himself a part time job. I only say this because life seems to be going well for him, rather than a potential response to something.

He is however autistic.

DD 17 is furious and says he's making a mockery of women and that woman is not a costume. She says he better not be going in female only spaces.

DD 15 looks stunned and keeps asking why he thinks he can just become a woman and what he thinks that means. She can't identify out of periods etc etc. DS 15 is laughing in disbelief. DH just looks completely confused and keeps muttering about getting loads of tattoos when he wanted to shock his parents thirty five years ago.

I genuinely don't know what to do next. Please bear in mind I'm in shock, had only just 'got over' my first born leaving for uni and all the emotions that brings.

I want to support DS19 with whatever gender expression he wants. When he still looked like him (and didn't appear to be 'dressed as' a mockery of women) I was shocked but we just thought ok, this is him experimenting with finding himself or whatever. But now I'm really worried about him and his future and whether others will look at him and think wtf. I'm also angry at the very (sorry to stereotype) 'teen boy' way he told us - late at night, no response, informing us what he was called rather than perhaps asking 'could you call me'. No consideration of the impact but I guess that might just be being 19.

I agree with what both of my daughters are saying. How do I say this because it then directly criticises DS? Do I accept he is an adult, has made his choices and my care and focus should be on them? I can't gaslight them and tell them they're wrong.

I'm now worried he's going to go into female spaces, as a clearly visible six foot plus male. This would make me angry.

He is at a university where I know lots of his lecturers (I am an academic in the same field). I know many are gender critical. Do I mention it to them first or let it be the elephant in the room?

I don't know what to say to my 85 year old mother. I think she will be very shocked and worried. I'm trying to work out if we have to tell her (she doesn't live nearby).

I don't know how much to talk to him or challenge this. I feel a kind of grief. I'm worried he's going to take hormones or do something irreversible.

We all dislike the name / think it's a very odd choice - which makes me feel very alienated from him.

And at the end of the day he's my 'baby' - I want him to be happy. I don't want people to criticise him. I want to support him but how do you do that when you question so much what he is doing? It wasn't the fact he declared himself to have a different gender but rather what followed - the declaration of name, strange clothing and fear of him going in women's spaces.

I also do absolutely realise he is an adult and can make his own choices and face the consequences. He has his own life (albeit he's being financially supported by us).

I guess it was just so sudden.

Any advice on what to do next would be gladly received.

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CautiousLurker · 09/10/2024 23:49

@RedToothBrush I think this discussion on the importance of valuing - and possibly prioritising - sibling needs within a family where another sibling has declared a trans identity is easier to try and censor than to engage with. You notice the usual culprits who have popped on have NOT actually commented on this. There is no acknowledgement of the impact or potential distress this may cause on (often younger) siblings, the displacement when a trans sibling assumes their sexual identity and position in the family hierarchy. No compassion even in passing for people who have shared their experiences on this thread as siblings or for the children like my son. Nothing, just a ‘you need to focus on the trans child/help him with his makeup/blah blah’.

This is because if they show compassion, if they acknowledge the harm caused, then they necessarily have to allow for the dysfunctionality of the act of coming out as trans. Instead they have straw-manned: all families have tensions, require compromise, no-one should have to conform to the will of other family members (by not divorcing or providing grandchildren) etc. Ie the trans child/person should be allowed to be themselves without constraint but, simultaneously, their siblings must suck it up and reframe their bigotry/overcome their discomfort.

And for those of us who are saying no to this, there are our covert moderators reporting our posts and getting them deleted.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 09/10/2024 23:42

Aargh MN formatting! Quoting you there

Ereshkigalangcleg · 09/10/2024 23:42

• Because mothers are the first line of defence between a vulnerable autistic child and those who would seek to harm them. Shutting down discussion on the UK's biggest parenting forum is about shutting down mothers' ability to safeguard.

• Because this whole "choose your bespoke identity complete with flag, label, and neo-pronouns" youth phenomenon is inherently exclusionary of considering the rights and needs of anyone else. Acknowledging the harm done to siblings would mean acknowledging that this youth phenomenon, and the social movement of dodgy adults pushing it, are harming siblings who are often children at the time.

Really good points @MaidOfAle

MaidOfAle · 09/10/2024 23:38

RedToothBrush · 09/10/2024 23:25

A thought-terminating cliché (also known as a semantic stop-sign, a thought-stopper, bumper sticker logic, or cliché thinking) is a form of loaded language, often passing as folk wisdom, intended to end an argument and quell cognitive dissonance. Its function is to stop an argument from proceeding further, ending the debate with a cliché rather than a point. Some such clichés are not inherently terminating. They only become so when used to intentionally dismiss dissent or justify fallacious logic.

Firstly. Why use thought terminating cliches? Why do you need them? Why are they important?
Following on from that. Why is censorship on this thread important? Why can't posts stand to allow critical thought? Why not challenge the content of such posts?
Surely there is a point to this

The need to police this thread has to come from somewhere? Why are siblings such a problem here?
What is really going on? As I said throughout this thread, power dynamics and sibling rivalry is a more important factor here than anyone is clearly willing to admit.
Autistic people are particular vulnerable to all this because they struggle with identifying manipulative communication technics. We know of the vulnerability of it with coercive control.
This is such an important thing to be aware of and not. I'm not trying to be an arse about this.
So I ask again. Whats really going on with this thread?

  1. Because mothers are the first line of defence between a vulnerable autistic child and those who would seek to harm them. Shutting down discussion on the UK's biggest parenting forum is about shutting down mothers' ability to safeguard.
  2. Because this whole "choose your bespoke identity complete with flag, label, and neo-pronouns" youth phenomenon is inherently exclusionary of considering the rights and needs of anyone else. Acknowledging the harm done to siblings would mean acknowledging that this youth phenomenon, and the social movement of dodgy adults pushing it, are harming siblings who are often children at the time.
RedToothBrush · 09/10/2024 23:25

Ereshkigalangcleg · 09/10/2024 23:12

The statement "trans women are women" is a thought terminating cliche. It's self evidently false and illogical. It's not meant to explain anything, it's meant to silence.

A thought-terminating cliché (also known as a semantic stop-sign, a thought-stopper, bumper sticker logic, or cliché thinking) is a form of loaded language, often passing as folk wisdom, intended to end an argument and quell cognitive dissonance. Its function is to stop an argument from proceeding further, ending the debate with a cliché rather than a point. Some such clichés are not inherently terminating. They only become so when used to intentionally dismiss dissent or justify fallacious logic.

Firstly. Why use thought terminating cliches? Why do you need them? Why are they important?
Following on from that. Why is censorship on this thread important? Why can't posts stand to allow critical thought? Why not challenge the content of such posts?
Surely there is a point to this

The need to police this thread has to come from somewhere? Why are siblings such a problem here?
What is really going on? As I said throughout this thread, power dynamics and sibling rivalry is a more important factor here than anyone is clearly willing to admit.
Autistic people are particular vulnerable to all this because they struggle with identifying manipulative communication technics. We know of the vulnerability of it with coercive control.
This is such an important thing to be aware of and not. I'm not trying to be an arse about this.
So I ask again. Whats really going on with this thread?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 09/10/2024 23:25

Of course not.

MaidOfAle · 09/10/2024 23:24

There are people monitoring this thread who really don't like it when posters make clear the parallels between blue oysters and a certain social movement.

MaidOfAle · 09/10/2024 23:18

ExtremelyPrivate · 09/10/2024 11:00

I'm worried, @Autumnleavesareslippery and @AreTheyOrArentThey about the self-blaming thoughts you have in relation to how wider societal issues like perceptions of feminism and of 'toxic masculinity' play out in your own household and parenting. There is such an intensely strong tendency among mothers to try and find ways of blaming ourselves and I want to say very emphatically that the humanity and care in your parenting is evident and it just wouldn't be fair to focus on any real or imagined failings.
All of us, of course, to some extent internalise and perform various malign societal influences such as misogyny and resentment of certain male behaviours; all children find themselves by working though these currents in their parents and in their family.
What matters most is not for parents to be somehow immune from all the current that shape everyone's personality and behaviour, but that children can develop and respond to all these currents in an emotionally supporting environment in which we are all open to monitoring ourselves, apologising when we get things wrong, inviting our children to express any hurts that they feel and so on.

I also want to say that our own attitudes as mothers in relation to feminism, masculinity and so forth might be quite a minor influence in comparison with other aspects of sibling dynamics. Position within the family (older, younger, middle) is also extremely important. I know that in my own childhood my extreme 'tomboy' persona (which may have been twisted into a trans identity if I was a child now) was as much influenced by my status as a middle child as it was by my father's manifest preference for doing boy stuff with his only boy (my younger brother).
Another massive influence is being the sibling of a child who has severe problems, whatever those problems are - gender/mental health or physical illness. I think that at least one other parent on this thread has spoken of how gentle, compassionate, kind their non-trans-identified child is, and how they feel guilty that this gentle persona has contributed to a kind of reduced parental focus.
But I do think that the siblings of children with problems can sometimes develop into incredibly compassionate and self-sufficient adults, partly as a result of their early experiences. Of course we have to keep on reminding them that THEY ARE ALLOWED TO BE NEEDY AND NOISY TOO. But we can also accept, with gratitude and pride, any signs that their self-sufficiency and compassion might be genuine. My son's sibling (another boy, I haven't said that before out of obsessive anxiety about privacy, but it is material I think, since I think it would have been much harder for him in various ways if he was a girl) is astonishingly grounded, kind, functional. I can't believe it. But it is real. Some consequences of family trauma can be ok.
Anyway: TL;DR -- be kind to yourselves. You are going through a lot.

I suspect someone didn't like one of my word choices. I'll try rephrasing.

I'm worried, @Autumnleavesareslippery and @AreTheyOrArentThey about the self-blaming thoughts you have in relation to how wider societal issues like perceptions of feminism and of 'toxic masculinity' play out in your own household and parenting. There is such an intensely strong tendency among mothers to try and find ways of blaming ourselves

A mother's reaction to unreasonable male behaviour, such as sexual harassment or male violence, is not to blame for her son wanting to opt out of being male, any more than Rosa Parks is responsible for Rachel Dolezal wanting to opt out of being white.

It's very much the First Rule of Misogyny to blame a woman for what a man does. This whole idea that women have somehow radicalised men by <checks notes> speaking out against rape and abuse and wanting fair pay is itself a form of misogyny.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 09/10/2024 23:12

The statement "trans women are women" is a thought terminating cliche. It's self evidently false and illogical. It's not meant to explain anything, it's meant to silence.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 09/10/2024 23:11

It just doesn't make sense. Most of the "allies" know that as well. Yet still they think they can force people to toe their ideological line. How inconvenient that we don't and we keep showing up the absurdity of their beliefs.

Delphinium20 · 09/10/2024 23:07

I used to think it was the c word too - a useful way to describe what's happening in this current zeitgeist (another useful German word which is a mash of 'time' and 'ghost'). However, I think what's happened is really brainwashing. That's probably the most accurate way of describing what has happened to people who believe fervently gender identity.

RedToothBrush · 09/10/2024 22:58

Good god. Why did Maid's post get deleted?

Its ridiculous tonight.

RedToothBrush · 09/10/2024 22:56

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Lets just fuck it and post all 17 of Bewilderness's rules.
https://4w.pub/the-rules-of-misogyny/

  1. Women are responsible for what men do.
  2. Women saying no to men is a hate crime.
  3. Women speaking for themselves are exclusionary and selfish.
  4. Women’s opinions are violence against men, thus male violence against women is justified.
  5. Women and Feminism must be useful to men or they are worthless.
  6. Women who go around being female AT men by menstruating and breastfeeding babies deserve punishment.
  7. Women should always be grateful to men for everything.
  8. Men are whatever men say they are and women are whatever men say they are.
  9. Men always know the “real reasons” for everything women do and say.
10. The worst thing about male violence is that it makes men look bad. 11. Whatever women suffer from, it is worse when it happens to men. 12. Women’s ability to recognize male behavior patterns is misandry. 13. Angry women are crazy. Angry men have trouble expressing themselves. 14. Women have all the rights they need: The right to remain silent. 15. Men are the default human. Women are strange subhuman others. 16. Everyone owns and controls women’s bodies except the women themselves. 17. Men are better at performing femininity than women are because they invented it and it gives them a boner.
MaidOfAle · 09/10/2024 22:49

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

RedToothBrush · 09/10/2024 22:38

Inform yourself Become well-informed by doing your homework. Formulate a plan. Research and understand nefarious organisation and coercise control. Don’t make the mistake of trying to rationally argue. Learn about mind control techniques and which communication strategies are most effective. Helping a person will be a process requiring patience, effort, flexibility, and love.
Trust. Reach out and be warm. Remember the good times. Focus on common values and areas you both enjoy. At first, don’t talk about controversial topics. Avoid “hot topics.” Just try to connect with the other person and have positive interactions. Build credibility and sustain positive interaction. Build a long-term relationship based upon respect, compassion, and love.
Social media and echo chambers. Be mindful of what media you and others are using. Are you fully aware of the counter arguments in order to develop your own thoughts? Encourage this as healthy behaviour generally, not just on difficult topics.

Ask thought-provoking questions while being warm and curious. Be prepared to listen deeply. You will know if you have listened well if you can repeat back to them what they said. Be humble and open to hearing what they say.

Civility. Keep conversations positive and productive whereever possible. Stay resourceful. It is better to end the interaction than to say something counter-productive. It is better to return to the conversation at another time.
Understanding Adopt a general tone of curiosity and interest in their positions. Try to connect them with their identity before extreme beliefs. Remind them of past experiences together. Talk about the connection you once had and how you miss it.
Listen. Don’t “tell” them anything. Help them to make discoveries on their own. Ask open ended questions designed to make them think rather than giving your view. Caution: an abundance of facts won't necessarily help. Do not overwhelm them with information, especially if it attacks the ideology.
Try to get them to look at reality from many different perspectives. This can include many things on different subjects. Use examples of authoritarism and have conversations about it. Share feelings and perceptions, not judgments. Use “I feel” statements. Don’t claim to be “right.” Stick to what your perception is when reflecting back to them. Ask a question and then wait for them to think and respond. Be patient. You do not need to fill silence.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 09/10/2024 22:21

Telling the truth is never bad or wrong. It is essential to functioning and healthy debate and a society which is dealing with its problems. We have to talk about things we don't want to and we have to talk about unpleasant and difficult subjects.

Honesty is so so important in this. If we can't be honest about how we feel, we are being grossly let down. The rise of disinformation owes a huge amount to a feeling of abuses of power and unpopular opinions being classed as 'unacceptable'. We must continue to be honest. And sincere.

Even if others don't like it.

Fully agree.

RedToothBrush · 09/10/2024 22:07

Seems as if we are being very much limited in terms of what we are allowed to say. Its almost as if there's a fear we will same something all together 'dangerous'. Women coming together and sharing their experiences is seen as unacceptable. It is not tolerated. It must be controlled.

Can't say I'm terribly surprised if I'm honest. Its not as if its not been done for years on here. We keep being proven as Cassandras.

Really frustruating that MNHQ seem to fall for it every time though.

Every time we seem to make progress in opening up crucial conversions and topic, this happens. This one is particularly important and I hope people see why and I hope they get my point about why you can't reason with people in the grips of this. For parents and siblings carrying this enormous weight of guilt its particularly important. Its not your fault.

When theres a concerted attempt to close it down, it proves the point. Again and again

Telling the truth is never bad or wrong. It is essential to functioning and healthy debate and a society which is dealing with its problems. We have to talk about things we don't want to and we have to talk about unpleasant and difficult subjects.

Honesty is so so important in this. If we can't be honest about how we feel, we are being grossly let down. The rise of disinformation owes a huge amount to a feeling of abuses of power and unpopular opinions being classed as 'unacceptable'. We must continue to be honest. And sincere.

Even if others don't like it.

Mumsnet is crucial in making sure all voices are heard. Don't stop talking here. Even if you also want to talk off site.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 09/10/2024 21:57

Yes there is a long running series of threads which have led to a campaign by the fantastic group Trans Widows Voices.

SophiaCohle · 09/10/2024 21:54

And trans widows? Or are they catered for elsewhere?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 09/10/2024 21:51

And yes, parents of adult children.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 09/10/2024 21:46

Someone asked me to clarify why I thought we needed a new subforum and this is partly it (not that the new forum was actually my idea but I'd support it).

LGBT Children is quite affirmative in my experience, and I think a support forum in FWR specifically for GC families of trans-identifying people (not necessarily children actually) would mean we could share experiences and support each other without having to deal with the well-meaning and not so well-meaning interventions of people who think our position is intrinsically transphobic.

The Sex & Gender subforum is more about the politics of it rather than feelings and predicaments imo. And LGBT Children deals with wider LBG issues. If a critical mass of people agree I'll appoach MNHQ if people would like me to.

I was feeling extremely isolated before this thread and the shared experiences have really helped.

I think this thread has shown that the experience of siblings, in particular is one which is often overlooked. I think maybe start a new thread in Site Stuff, rather than tag onto an existing one.

ElleWoods15 · 09/10/2024 21:35

SophiaCohle · 09/10/2024 21:34

And if you don't want to join in, then...well, don't.

Well aware I’m NFI, don’t worry, @SophiaCohle!

SophiaCohle · 09/10/2024 21:34

And if you don't want to join in, then...well, don't.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 09/10/2024 21:33

I’m not going to provide a CV or family details to GC posters on a, at times pretty transphobic and unpleasant, forum.

No one has asked for a "CV or family details" or anything of that nature. It's a straw man.