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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

How do you support other siblings when a teen decides they are trans

663 replies

Autumnleavesareslippery · 07/10/2024 09:13

I've name changed for this, have been a member for 19 years since pregnant with DS. I'm going to try and be factual as I'm in shock and dealing with a whole host of mine and my children's emotions. Yes I'm using 'he' here as none of us have got our heads around this. I'm trying to be very honest in how I feel and really need some support from people who have more of an idea about how to handle this than me.

DS (19) came home from uni on Friday. On Friday night at about 11 pm in the family chat he declared he was transgender. He informed us what he was called. It was an unusual name choice for a 19 year old - that of someone perhaps born 150 years ago. Think Enid. He told us he'd known for years.

All of us were in shock. I have DD (17) and DD and DS (both 14). I sent a message privately to him thanking for letting us know as I wasn't quite sure what else to say. He didn't read it and remained in his room. Didn't even bother with the usual teen response of a thumbs up.

Saturday and Sunday he acted completely normally, like nothing major had happened and he had told us he was vegetarian now or something. He seemed calm and relaxed. He looked exactly the same - a 6ft 2 broad shouldered man.

He then came downstairs to get a lift to the train station dressed as what I can only describe as a stereotype of what someone might think a woman looked like. Badly done make up. An odd dress that didn't fit. And started talking in a completely different soft 'feminine' voice and doing strange things with his hands that he must have deemed 'female'. He had lace like gloves on. It looked so outdated and strange.

The best way to describe it was he looked like Dame Edna or the character out of little Britain from 20 years ago in that the clothing was odd and it seemed almost designed to get a reaction. But he appeared to be deadly serious and nonchalant about it. A woman would have been clearly mocked if she dressed like it. It just leaves me wondering whether this is what he views women as?! Not that he knows any women who would act like this - he's surrounded by many women who express themselves in multiple ways but not in an Edwardian lady about to collapse way.

I drove him to the station trying to make small talk about the weather and his course and came back to everyone sat staring in disbelief. He's never said anything, acted in any way 'feminine' (whatever that means). He's at a RG uni, studying a science subject with 3 As at A level, and has organised himself a part time job. I only say this because life seems to be going well for him, rather than a potential response to something.

He is however autistic.

DD 17 is furious and says he's making a mockery of women and that woman is not a costume. She says he better not be going in female only spaces.

DD 15 looks stunned and keeps asking why he thinks he can just become a woman and what he thinks that means. She can't identify out of periods etc etc. DS 15 is laughing in disbelief. DH just looks completely confused and keeps muttering about getting loads of tattoos when he wanted to shock his parents thirty five years ago.

I genuinely don't know what to do next. Please bear in mind I'm in shock, had only just 'got over' my first born leaving for uni and all the emotions that brings.

I want to support DS19 with whatever gender expression he wants. When he still looked like him (and didn't appear to be 'dressed as' a mockery of women) I was shocked but we just thought ok, this is him experimenting with finding himself or whatever. But now I'm really worried about him and his future and whether others will look at him and think wtf. I'm also angry at the very (sorry to stereotype) 'teen boy' way he told us - late at night, no response, informing us what he was called rather than perhaps asking 'could you call me'. No consideration of the impact but I guess that might just be being 19.

I agree with what both of my daughters are saying. How do I say this because it then directly criticises DS? Do I accept he is an adult, has made his choices and my care and focus should be on them? I can't gaslight them and tell them they're wrong.

I'm now worried he's going to go into female spaces, as a clearly visible six foot plus male. This would make me angry.

He is at a university where I know lots of his lecturers (I am an academic in the same field). I know many are gender critical. Do I mention it to them first or let it be the elephant in the room?

I don't know what to say to my 85 year old mother. I think she will be very shocked and worried. I'm trying to work out if we have to tell her (she doesn't live nearby).

I don't know how much to talk to him or challenge this. I feel a kind of grief. I'm worried he's going to take hormones or do something irreversible.

We all dislike the name / think it's a very odd choice - which makes me feel very alienated from him.

And at the end of the day he's my 'baby' - I want him to be happy. I don't want people to criticise him. I want to support him but how do you do that when you question so much what he is doing? It wasn't the fact he declared himself to have a different gender but rather what followed - the declaration of name, strange clothing and fear of him going in women's spaces.

I also do absolutely realise he is an adult and can make his own choices and face the consequences. He has his own life (albeit he's being financially supported by us).

I guess it was just so sudden.

Any advice on what to do next would be gladly received.

OP posts:
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Ereshkigalangcleg · 07/10/2024 17:19

@RedToothBrush Flowers you are a well known poster, and some people, possibly not even posting, would probably rather your voice is silenced.

RedToothBrush · 07/10/2024 17:17

Name5 · 07/10/2024 17:16

@ExtremelyPrivate it was me who suggested a separate topic for gender questioning adult DC The issues are different to children who must be protected at all costs from irreversible proceedures. When my DC was at school the original board was very helpful.

Fwiw I did not ask for Reds post to be removed although she may think I did. I was on a work call and didn't even see it.

I didn't even know you were on the thread. I don't know or care who reported it. It's irrelevant.

I'm disappointed in MN.

RedToothBrush · 07/10/2024 17:16

The feeling of being invisible and 2nd Class to a male who is doing the 'Behold a Man Has Arrived' Meme when they do 'Behold I Have Become a Woman' is crushing.

It doesn't get any less or go away tbh.

MN just reinforced that feeling.

Don't let your daughters be in that position. Protect them from being pushed into that. Protect them and reassure them it's ok to be angry. It's ok to be up. It's ok to have their own feelings and this in no way makes them 'bad'. They should feel or be made to feel guilty.

They have enough to deal with the 'twisted mirror syndrome' (the one the OP herself describes in her posts). If they look like their brother, it'll be even harder for them especially at that time of life when appearance is so important to teenage girls.

Honestly it's really depressing.

I just feel like I've been kicked in the teeth for stating truth and explaining how it affected me.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 07/10/2024 17:16

Bit of a side issue here, but just to mention that this thread is an illustration of why (in line with a suggestion made in site Stuff the other day) it might be useful to have some sort of 'parent of gender-questioning child' topic where people could post asking how to support their child, but without having to feel trammelled by the particular framing that may be seen to be a default in the LGBT Children topic.
*A difficulty with posting for support in 'Feminism: Sex and gender discussions' is that - not at all unreasonably - this topic is viewed as a place for discussion, and the support element of the thread can get a little lost in the discursive element.

Yes, that's a very good point.

Name5 · 07/10/2024 17:16

@ExtremelyPrivate it was me who suggested a separate topic for gender questioning adult DC The issues are different to children who must be protected at all costs from irreversible proceedures. When my DC was at school the original board was very helpful.

Fwiw I did not ask for Reds post to be removed although she may think I did. I was on a work call and didn't even see it.

Needadvicefor · 07/10/2024 17:15

The explosion of young trans is a manifestation of unhappiness and social media.

TriesNotToBeCynical · 07/10/2024 17:14

MaidOfAle · 07/10/2024 17:10

Many intersex people have no capacity to produce any gametes.

This does not conflict with When people have DSDs they are on a developmental pathway towards one of two roles in reproduction, which is what the term sex means.

Someone with Turner Syndrome has no capacity to produce gametes, yet is on a female developmental path, with partly-developed Mullerian duct (I can't spell the new name for that) and undeveloped Wolffian duct (I can't spell the new name for that either).

Even in the really really rare cases of XX-XY chimerism, which are so rare that individual cases get written up in medical journals, one developmental path will be dominant.

Edited

What about testicular feminisation syndrome then? Definitely on a path to have mainly female phenotype, and no prospect at all of becoming a fertile male. Should she be labelled a man on some half-baked "law of nature" that her chromosomes make her "male"?

popeydokey · 07/10/2024 17:14

Intersex is totally irrelevant to the OP so, as frustrating as it is to see incorrect assertions on this thread, could we leave off the derailing?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 07/10/2024 17:13

Many intersex people have no capacity to produce any gametes.

Being unable to reproduce is not a third sex. And it doesn't mean that a person doesn't have a sex. There are only two sexes. It's your understanding that is flawed and ideological here. Nothing about this biological reality precludes support for people with disorders of sex development.

Ingenieur · 07/10/2024 17:13

TriesNotToBeCynical · 07/10/2024 17:07

Many intersex people have no capacity to produce any gametes. Yet another half-understood "scientific" rule. If you want to say no-one borne a man and growing up as one should be allowed to pass himself as women in women-only spaces I am not going to disagree with you. But unfortunately 'o' level science does not allow for intersex people who do exist and deserve consideration.

You are seriously projecting with your O-Level statement. Actually producing the gametes that a person has the potential to produce is not relevant to the definition of sex.

But there are just to gametes, and no human has ever been demonstrated to produce both.

Please stop muddling the issue.

Needadvicefor · 07/10/2024 17:13

TriesNotToBeCynical · 07/10/2024 17:07

Many intersex people have no capacity to produce any gametes. Yet another half-understood "scientific" rule. If you want to say no-one borne a man and growing up as one should be allowed to pass himself as women in women-only spaces I am not going to disagree with you. But unfortunately 'o' level science does not allow for intersex people who do exist and deserve consideration.

The number of true intersex people is low. Most trans, in my view, have other issues...

MaidOfAle · 07/10/2024 17:10

TriesNotToBeCynical · 07/10/2024 17:07

Many intersex people have no capacity to produce any gametes. Yet another half-understood "scientific" rule. If you want to say no-one borne a man and growing up as one should be allowed to pass himself as women in women-only spaces I am not going to disagree with you. But unfortunately 'o' level science does not allow for intersex people who do exist and deserve consideration.

Many intersex people have no capacity to produce any gametes.

This does not conflict with When people have DSDs they are on a developmental pathway towards one of two roles in reproduction, which is what the term sex means.

Someone with Turner Syndrome has no capacity to produce gametes, yet is on a female developmental path, with partly-developed Mullerian duct (I can't spell the new name for that) and undeveloped Wolffian duct (I can't spell the new name for that either).

Even in the really really rare cases of XX-XY chimerism, which are so rare that individual cases get written up in medical journals, one developmental path will be dominant.

TriesNotToBeCynical · 07/10/2024 17:07

Ingenieur · 07/10/2024 17:03

I don't want to derail any more, but sex is always binary. It is defined by the potential to produce one of two gametes, and there are only two gametes.

When people have DSDs they are on a developmental pathway towards one of two roles in reproduction, which is what the term sex means.

It is not ignorance or intolerance to suggest this.

Many intersex people have no capacity to produce any gametes. Yet another half-understood "scientific" rule. If you want to say no-one borne a man and growing up as one should be allowed to pass himself as women in women-only spaces I am not going to disagree with you. But unfortunately 'o' level science does not allow for intersex people who do exist and deserve consideration.

theilltemperedclavecinist · 07/10/2024 17:07

TriesNotToBeCynical · 07/10/2024 16:57

Indeed it is not relevant to the OP's problem. It is relevant to the faith-based statement by PP I was replying to that "sex is always binary". It smacks of intolerance and ignorance. I am not aiming to support the trans movement, just to stop people misusing science to support dogmatic social views when it doesn't.

Sex is always binary. People with certain significant DSDs are the only people permitted to choose their birth sex. They can get their birth registration altered, and the alteration takes effect ex tunc .

They are still only allowed to select 'male' or 'female' though. That's binary.

ExtremelyPrivate · 07/10/2024 17:06

Bit of a side issue here, but just to mention that this thread is an illustration of why (in line with a suggestion made in site Stuff the other day) it might be useful to have some sort of 'parent of gender-questioning child' topic where people could post asking how to support their child, but without having to feel trammelled by the particular framing that may be seen to be a default in the LGBT Children topic.
A difficulty with posting for support in 'Feminism: Sex and gender discussions' is that - not at all unreasonably - this topic is viewed as a place for discussion, and the support element of the thread can get a little lost in the discursive element.

tellmewhenthespaceshiplandscoz · 07/10/2024 17:06

Mumsnet - can you explain please? That deletion was completely unwarranted

RedToothBrush · 07/10/2024 17:04

I spent about an hour writing that post to help someone. I'm actually really upset.

RedToothBrush · 07/10/2024 17:04

ColinTheGenderMinotaur · 07/10/2024 16:58

Red’s incredibly insightful and useful post just disappeared before my eyes. MNHQ this is not OK - OP asked for assistance with understanding and supporting her DDs and Red shared her own personal experience of being the DD in this scenario.

MN’s unique strength is women supporting women and by deleting Red’s post you just prevented OPs DDs from being supported in a meaningful way.

I have just asked MNHQ for an explanation of why it was deleted.

I don't get it.

I have said for a long time that families and siblings are written out of this narrative and there's a huge gap of knowledge and stigma about what it's really like. We are not allowed to speak about how it affects us.

I said that ultimately the OP has to be mindful of the degree to which she can support, whether it's wanted, how she might never be able to and how there is a cult like problem with a lot of it and it's often excuses unacceptable behaviour.

I said the degree of militancy would affect the way in which the OP would respond.

And yes, it does come down to that. And yes it's like a grenade going off in a family.

This is frustrating.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 07/10/2024 17:04

It is relevant to the faith-based statement by PP I was replying to that "sex is always binary"

It is binary, the existence of disorders of sex development doesn't mean there are more than two sexes. Not going to argue this point further here, happy to on another thread.

MaidOfAle · 07/10/2024 17:04

thesunisastar · 07/10/2024 15:04

It is not easy, at 6ft 2, 'dressing up' as a woman. He will be ridiculed. He will be subjected to abuse. So no one decides to do this on a whim.

A young person who has spent a long time not fitting in (because they are ND, or for other reasons) is sadly already used to being ostracised and ridiculed just for being who they are. Which must be absolutely fucking horrendous.

By adopting a trans identity, suddenly all of that self-loathing can be channelled outwards instead. It's no longer your fault for not fitting in, its society's fault for being narrowminded and bigoted. Coupled with the attraction of having a ready made community that welcomes you and affirms you.

So no, I think that this is absolutely something that can be "done on a whim", because the abuse someone gets for cross dressing, although perhaps more open and prolific, will be much less personally painful that the old feelings of being an isolated misfit.

You win the thread.

Twenty-five years ago, the autistic misfits were all goths, for the same reason. That and the all-black outfit with spiked accessories is a sort of psychological armour, a sartorial "keep out" sign.

Ingenieur · 07/10/2024 17:03

TriesNotToBeCynical · 07/10/2024 16:57

Indeed it is not relevant to the OP's problem. It is relevant to the faith-based statement by PP I was replying to that "sex is always binary". It smacks of intolerance and ignorance. I am not aiming to support the trans movement, just to stop people misusing science to support dogmatic social views when it doesn't.

I don't want to derail any more, but sex is always binary. It is defined by the potential to produce one of two gametes, and there are only two gametes.

When people have DSDs they are on a developmental pathway towards one of two roles in reproduction, which is what the term sex means.

It is not ignorance or intolerance to suggest this.

LittleMissViper · 07/10/2024 17:00

Autumnleavesareslippery · 07/10/2024 15:43

This is one of the things I’ve been chatting to DH about - we just don’t understand why. What’s he gaining? You can’t actually change sex. Any (legal and reasonable) behaviours, preferences or clothes (even Edwardian ones) are open to all … so why?

The whole meaning of the trans prefix is to change form or position. If you transfer money, you need to know where it's coming from and where it's going to. If you translate text, you need to know the language it is, and the language it's going to be.

So if he's intending to transgender himself, the implication is that he's planning on changing gender from being a man to being a woman. So he needs to have a concrete idea of what 'being a woman' means to him, and a plan for how to get himself there. (Hopefully, he'll also have some idea of how achieving this aim will enrich his life!)

As you say, changing his genetics to be the opposite sex is impossible with current medical science. So if 'being a woman' requires him to completely change his sex, down to a cellular level, then he's got a 0% chance of achieving a successful transition.

But even if his belief of 'being a woman' doesn't require him to change to be a genetic female, for other people their belief of 'being a woman' does requires a person to be genetically female - and this belief is both lawful and widespread. For them, there is nothing he will be able to do with current medical science that will make them consider him a woman. How does he feel about that? Will it affect his transition success?

Alternatively, is he intending to be stuck in a state of transitioning forever? Not one thing or the other, never here or there, unsure if he's coming or going? Because that sounds like a really bad idea for financial, physical and mental reasons.

RedToothBrush · 07/10/2024 16:58

tellmewhenthespaceshiplandscoz · 07/10/2024 16:54

Hey Red, any idea why your post was deleted by MN? I found it incredibly articulate and informative. Fair play if you asked but otherwise Confused

I have no idea.

I would like to know why it was deleted.

My lived experience obviously has hit a nerve.

ColinTheGenderMinotaur · 07/10/2024 16:58

Red’s incredibly insightful and useful post just disappeared before my eyes. MNHQ this is not OK - OP asked for assistance with understanding and supporting her DDs and Red shared her own personal experience of being the DD in this scenario.

MN’s unique strength is women supporting women and by deleting Red’s post you just prevented OPs DDs from being supported in a meaningful way.