Are younger generations more regressive?

dadJoke on every thread gets it really wrong about "gender critical" people.

Can you articulate what it is you think GC people believe, in a way that all GC people would agree with?

I assume you can't, because you seem either genuinely muddled (or dishonest) about it.

Also just saying "the EA" doesn't specify individual rights. You're incredibly bad at being specific about literally anything you claim to believe.

(1) This is a lie. Of course I know why you do it. It allows you to use emotive language like "remove human rights" as a thought-terminating tactic. The problem for you, and the reason why you laud "younger people" so much, is that the older one gets, the more one is aware of these tactics and the less one falls for them

YY, exactly.

@FlirtsWithRhinos you've listed a lot of human rights violations, all of which are bad, and none of which I agree with.

The EA2010 and GRA codifies some human rights

Some of those rights are specifially for transgender people.

You want to remove those rights because you disagree with them.

Which of these statements is a lie?

I don't know why you think this is such a gotcha (1)

As a woman (sex based meaning) I am very conscious that the law has often encoded the right of male people to exclude, oppress and abuse women. No feminist who knows her history would ever accept "the law says it's ok for me to do this so it must be ok for me to do this" as a viable moral argument.

However, I'm glad you raised it because it gives me the opportunity to say that one of reasons I so strongly reject male appropriation of female language is that it separates us from our history and obscures the reality of who oppressed who, of who was given the power by law to oppress who.

No trans woman was ever denied the vote because (s)he was a woman. That was female people.
No trans woman was ever legally raped by (her) his husband. That was female people.
No trans woman was legally beaten using a stick no thicker than the thumb. That was female people.
No trans woman was ever legally locked in a scold's bridle. That was female people.
No trans woman has been forced to carry a baby to term because abortion is illegal. That was female people.

(1) This is a lie. Of course I know why you do it. It allows you to use emotive language like "remove human rights" as a thought-terminating tactic. The problem for you, and the reason why you laud "younger people" so much, is that the older one gets, the more one is aware of these tactics and the less one falls for them. My thoughts, in short, do not terminate because someone tells me I am in danger of thinking the unthinkable - I'll appreciate the concern but I will think just a little bit further to draw my own conclusions thank you.

Maybe he's talking about the "right" to perv over women and girls in the toilets... 👀

Can you be more specific about which rights you think gender critical feminists want to take away from trans people, and why?

No it just means that the law was found to be an ass in this case, was repealed, and I get to keep my £6 horse

No. Admitting they are additional rights is not “acknowledging you want to take them away.” That is a facile argument from a group of people who are only interested in vilifying women who are campaigning to find equitable solutions.

“So you are acknowledging that gender critical people want to take away codified human rights they already have. It would be great if gender critical people could at least admit this.”

This is your polarised and catrastrophised opinion. Equitable solutions have been suggested by women’s groups.

Your support of people having these additional rights that no one else has, is not dealing with equality. These rights have always been inequitable for women and women have been trying to point this out for over a decade.

@MarieDeGournay ”the law is an ass” is at least an original framing of “I oppose trans rights.”

Sometimes the law is an ass. Sometimes it realises it has made an ass of itself, and repairs the damage done. Sometimes laws are made that turn out to be inadequately thought through and have unforeseen consequences. Sometimes, bad laws are repealed.

Fortunately. Otherwise I would still not be allowed own a horse worth more than £5. Repealing that law took away from Protestants the codified 'additional right' of nicking my horse.

You can call them “additional rights” and by doing so you are acknowledging you want to take them away.

So you are acknowledging that gender critical people want to take away codified human rights they already have. It would be great if gender critical people could at least admit this.

So the additional rights that organisations can then claim exceptions for and legitimately exclude those male people from being treated as if they are female people?

The additional rights that no other people in the UK have to be treated differently to their material sex?

I think what DadJoke may be saying is that as women are not a minority, their rights are not fashionable amongst the young. I'm not sure why he's so very obsessed with persuading women to have fewer rights than they used to, though. Why?

Ah.....those "rights"

You mean the extra special rights they have in addition to all the same rights everyone else has, some of which infringe on the rights of other groups?

The rights transgender people have under the EA2010, and GRA and under the ECHR. You know, the ones you want to remove.

Same age as you. Sorry but women with short hair and trousers were sometimes soundly derided! See viz. And the expectations on girls were deeply set and we were expected to be kind (hate that too by the way). Women were only just going to uni in bigger numbers, less than 5% of parliament was female - until the late 1990s actually. Let’s not romanticise it! Gendered expectations were being massively challenged but that wasn’t the societal norm.

I’m late 40s, this is not a 20 year old phenomenon. Loads of things were gendered coded in my childhood. Plus a society that still had deeply drawn lines about what ‘boys do and girls do’. I do think there is a regressive element in gender ideology. But overall, kids have had less overt gendered expectations growing up over the last 20 years. Note my use of overt. And yes, I’ve got kids the same age as yours of both sexes. I was fairly relaxed about gendered stuff and just made sure they could access what they wanted. My one massively into dolls and prams, never wears makeup and likes the baggy masc look now as an adult.

What rights do trans people not have, @DadJoke?

Most people support women's rights to have single sex spaces and sports. If young people don't support that, it's not because they're more likely to support minority rights, it's because they've been gaslit into believing women aren't allowed to have boundaries.

Let’s not forget that there are now more than one poll that shows that people up to age 28 are also not being open about their opinions with friends, colleagues, social groups and even family because they are afraid of being ostracised

So much so that I think that until there was this public push back, the court cases such as Forstater, Bailey and Pheonix and the highly publicised sports and prison issues, young people were not vocal about their opinions.

Since then we have have mass student protests about schools forcing gender neutral toilets in the UK. In the USA, we are seeing female school/college sports teams forfeit their games against male players. Internationally, we have seen the growing number of social media posts from young women who reject being told that they have to accept males as being ‘female’.

And we have seen the growth of the detransitioner voices.

I think it is blinkered to assume the position of young people is one where the majority support accepting male people as being female people for single sex spaces, sports and representation and other opportunities.

Plus there is no comparison between the fight for LGB equality and the additional rights demands of people who demand they are treated as the sex they are materially not. Yet despite there being no comparison, this comparison is attempted all the time
by those who seem to just repeat this trope.

I think that the concept people had then of trans was gay men, and they were included because they and everyone else knew they were gay men, and a couple including such a person was understood as a gay couple.

Yeah, gender ideology is conservative, but being sold as progressive.
Here in Canada the Conservative party used to paradoxically be called the Progressive Conservative party. They dropped the progressive part when they merged with a religious right party. It seems to me that Gen Zers are both progressive and conservative at the same time, only they label their conservatism around stereotyped gender expression as progressive, because it's being packaged that way to them in order to sell products. What astronomical profits cosmetic companies and clothing manufacturers must be making off the trans fad, not to mention entertainment. They even make toys now which are profiting from it. Check out trans Barbie;

https://creations.mattel.com/en-ca/products/barbie-tribute-collection-laverne-cox-doll-hcb99

There are also gender neutral dolls like Creatable World dolls.

It's just that it's gender stereotyping to consider pink "girly." There's nothing wrong with pink. I love pink, but anybody who tries to tell me I love it because it's "girly" is going to get properly told off.
I dress like a dude much of the time, only in nicer colours than the usual drab ones men wear. I love purple as well.
According to some people, this would mean I'm non-binary. 🙄

This is not responsive to the OP. The question was not about minority rights. The question was about gender stereotyping eg; "girlycore." Is gender stereotyping regressive or not?

If I remember rightly, the 90s was also a time when lots of gay women objected to being called 'lesbians' because ... wait for it... they 'didn't like labels'!!

There are not enough eyerolls in the universe to express the irony of comparing that with the LGBQT2SIA+++ labels around today!