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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Prison isn't working for women - can it be fixed

39 replies

RethinkingLife · 06/10/2024 11:01

Good piece with thoughtful contributions. All the contributors align on the reality that prison is inappropriate for the majority of the women sent there and serves no useful function.

So many quotable items and statistics. This summary is good.

If you're only thinking about working with women at the point at which they're sent to prison, you're starting too late. The real solutions are earlier upstream, where change needs to happen.
Women are being sent to prison essentially as a punishment for being poor and falling into debt - they are the shock absorbers of poverty. Survivors of domestic abuse are criminalised.
They often experience horrendous mental health problems. The list just goes on. The system is completely broken.
Labour‘s Women's Justice Board is welcome if it can really do something. In the long term, we want to stop women being criminalised for the discriminatory experiences they have.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c243650gj07o

Montage image of handcuffs with one in the shape as the gender symbol for females

Prison isn't working for women, ministers say. Can it be fixed?

People with experience of the criminal justice system discuss how it can be reformed for female offenders.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c243650gj07o

OP posts:
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RMNofTikTok · 15/10/2024 00:06

Saw this appear on tiktok and thought it would be of interest to this thread

vm.tiktok.com/ZGdewwfvn/

RMNofTikTok · 09/10/2024 09:53

96% of people convicted for violent offences are male. The vast majority of the violent offences are linked to DV.

99% of people convicted for sexual offences are male.

I'm sure undiagnosed TBI plays a massive part in male pattern offending. However so does patriarchy and misogyny.

Female prisoners are far more vulnerable!

RethinkingLife · 09/10/2024 08:54

Men are 3.4 times more likely than women to be sent to prison for the same crime, men receive sentences which are 1.64 times longer than womens for the same crime.

ChatGPT seems to be reproducing from these paper, among others. Some interesting analyses of specific offences. The 2nd link is about the Crown Court setting which will reflect more serious sentencing possibilities.

Based on the gender effect estimated in these models we can now establish that, for offences of assault, male offenders are 2.84 times more likely to receive a custodial sentence than female offenders. This is the gender effect estimated when the same offence is committed, featuring the same harm, culpability, aggravating and mitigating factors, whether a guilty plea was entered at first opportunity, and having - approximately - the same number of previous convictions. For offences of burglary and drugs the odds ratios were 1.89, and 2.72 for drugs.

There is some discussion about disparities and whether these have utilitarian value (are women less likely to pose a threat to society).

Lastly, from a retributive perspective, the observed disparities might be justified on the basis of the higher harm experienced by women in and after custody. While in prison women are nearly twice as likely as men to be identified as suffering from depression (Player, 2014) and five times more likely to self-harm (Corston, 2007; MoJ, 2018). This is likely exacerbated by the existence of fewer female prisons makes it more likely for female offenders to be housed further away from home, which renders visits more difficult, making it harder to maintain ties and facilitate resettlement into community. Half of all women receive no visits compared to a quarter of men, and most women have neither a home or a job upon release (Player, 2014). Lastly, a more merciful approach that takes into account the generally more troubled past of female offenders could also be legitimately invoked as part of retributive considerations. For example, approximately 70% of women coming into custody require clinical detoxification compared to 50% of men. (Corston, 2007), while twice as many women in prison report having experienced emotional, physical or sexual abuse as a child compared to men (Minson, 2015). In summary, we believe that the estimated gender disparities can be justified in terms of the higher harm produced to women, and, more partially, for reasons of offender rehabilitation and dangerousness. As such, our findings should not be interpreted as evidence of discrimination against male offenders. Having said that, if we take into consideration the non-negligible extent of the disparities detected, our findings should also refute the widely held belief of sentencing in England and Wales being gender neutral.

As ever, there's a need for much better data. I could use some specificity about relative numbers of offenders for the offences explored and whether or not there are 'gendered' offences where dominate the offender category. E.g., sex work.

https://research-information.bris.ac.uk/ws/portalfiles/portal/209890205/Gender_gap.pdf

https://eprints.whiterose.ac.uk/154388/14/Gender%20Discrimination_23%20August.pdf

https://research-information.bris.ac.uk/ws/portalfiles/portal/209890205/Gender_gap.pdf

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RMNofTikTok · 08/10/2024 21:36

I worked in female estate for 2 years.

The vast majority of female prisoners are in prison as the consequence of DA, eg, they were forced to use drugs, pimped, beaten unless they shoplifted etc.

They do not need prison - they need a safe home and therapy.

Igmum · 08/10/2024 21:14

Disagree. Men are imprisoned for violence. Women seldom commit violence.

I'd be interested in the source of your statistics.

missmollygreen · 08/10/2024 21:03

Igmum · 06/10/2024 16:29

Glad to see this, but it has been an issue for many years. Women rarely commit crimes but, when they do, courts judge them more harshly and sentence them more severely than they would men.

You have to be joking?

Men are 3.4 times more likely than women to be sent to prison for the same crime, men receive sentences which are 1.64 times longer than womens for the same crime.

RethinkingLife · 08/10/2024 09:02

Viviennemary · 07/10/2024 20:30

Exactly. I wouldn't say it was a problem just for women prisoners.

As women's prisons are at much smaller scale+, they might be a useful way to pilot short to medium term innovations. However, the dynamics of incarcerated women may well be very different so improvements there might not be as feasible or effective in the men's estate.

As above PPs indicate, fixing housing, the care system, education etc. will take much longer but be of benefit to the whole of society. I don't know when any politicians will be able to overlook the 5 year election cycle to achieve this. As Million Dollar Murray indicates, the cost of not addressing the source of these problems is eye-wateringly expensive and poor value for everyone, in addition to being a tragedy for those at the heart of it.

+I don't know about the relative size of the non-custodial offender management system but it would seem plausible that it's smaller as well.

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Viviennemary · 07/10/2024 20:30

Christinapple · 06/10/2024 12:36

Prison doesn't "work" for almost anyone F or M.

Putting a bunch of criminals together under one roof where they become conditioned to violence and each other tends to make them less suited for fitting in to general society.

Exactly. I wouldn't say it was a problem just for women prisoners.

RethinkingLife · 07/10/2024 20:28

Excellent, insightful piece.

Thank you.

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SerendipityJane · 07/10/2024 17:42

IwantToRetire · 07/10/2024 17:36

Although this is a derail, as I dont think it applies to women, over 50% of male prisoners cant or can only barely read or write.

And as such are not likely to get paid work, or interact with society.

Whether this or other issues lead to drug addiction I dont know, but hasn't there been good results from Scotland where they treat drug addiction as a health issue rather than a crime.

Funnily enough, I was chatting with a friend recently, and following a discussion about "when libel trials go wrong", Jeffrey Archer had a dishonourable mention.

When he was banged up, he pretty much nailed the 80% part of the 80/20 problem within a few milliseconds. And it was centred around lack of literacy and numeracy. If memory serves he was quite a penal reformer for a while.

IwantToRetire · 07/10/2024 17:38

The cynic is me thinks that whilst there are campaigners who genuinely think women shouldn't be put in prison, I suspect the decision makers like it as an idea as for them it would be cost saving.

IwantToRetire · 07/10/2024 17:36

Although this is a derail, as I dont think it applies to women, over 50% of male prisoners cant or can only barely read or write.

And as such are not likely to get paid work, or interact with society.

Whether this or other issues lead to drug addiction I dont know, but hasn't there been good results from Scotland where they treat drug addiction as a health issue rather than a crime.

TempestTost · 07/10/2024 16:55

LoveSandbanks · 07/10/2024 11:26

There are a number of studies that show that drug abuse is more a symptom rather than a cause. People “turn to drugs” as a result of poor mental health. Instead of treating drugs as the problem, look at what causes people to use them.

I think this is less useful than one might think, as a way to prevent drug use.

RoyalCorgi · 07/10/2024 13:03

Agree 100%, biscuitandcake.

biscuitandcake · 07/10/2024 12:56

RoyalCorgi · 07/10/2024 11:57

It's complex, isn't it? From PPs you can see there are multiple intersecting factors: the care system, homelessness, mental health problems, drug addiction. And the reason children end up in care is usually because their parents can't look after them, for the same reasons (drug addiction, lack of adequate housing, poor mental health). So you get an endlessly repeating cycle of poor parenting leading to children in care leading to mental health problems/drug addiction leading to more poor parenting. You have to somehow find a way of tackling the problem at root.

Some parents will always be awful and some children will always be better off being taken into care.
For the rest - not slashing programmes like sure start, mental health support etc to pay for a banking crisis caused by some of the richest in society would have helped. As would supporting care leavers and prison leavers better. (I can think of a case where an 18 year old care leaver was given a room in a hostel right next to a drug addict recently released from prison. Both of those people need support. But housing them together almost guaranteed that ex prison guy will become vulnerable 18 year olds boyfriend
18 year old will support his drug habit through prostitution, probably her kids will be born in awful circumstances. Cycle repeats. But this is common policy.) Changing it might involve doing things that don't feel "fair" (letting care leavers queue jump housing lists, supporting drug addicts even though that's rewarding bad behaviour).

RoyalCorgi · 07/10/2024 11:57

It's complex, isn't it? From PPs you can see there are multiple intersecting factors: the care system, homelessness, mental health problems, drug addiction. And the reason children end up in care is usually because their parents can't look after them, for the same reasons (drug addiction, lack of adequate housing, poor mental health). So you get an endlessly repeating cycle of poor parenting leading to children in care leading to mental health problems/drug addiction leading to more poor parenting. You have to somehow find a way of tackling the problem at root.

LoveSandbanks · 07/10/2024 11:26

There are a number of studies that show that drug abuse is more a symptom rather than a cause. People “turn to drugs” as a result of poor mental health. Instead of treating drugs as the problem, look at what causes people to use them.

SerendipityJane · 07/10/2024 11:05

The "war on drugs" approach might not have worked

It's only been 52 years. Have some patience.

TempestTost · 07/10/2024 11:02

Autumnowl · 07/10/2024 10:33

Prison needs to be reserved for violence and abuse ,murder ,causing injuries .
Burglary,...a lot of what people are put in prison for could be delt with by community service, putting back in to the community..and curfew,more use of ankle tags .

I'm not sure I believe that all or maybe even most other crimes can be dealt with by having people in the community with ankle tags.

You know, I work in a town library, near a homeless shelter, where there are significant drug issues. I see a lot of guys who have been in the criminal justice system every day. I also know something about their backgrounds because this isn't a big place and most of them went to school with people who work in my library, or their kids. Many of them, most of them, come from backgrounds of abuse or lack of care, many of them have mental health issues, many of them have trauma as adults, a lot I suspect have brain damage of one kind of another, a lot are mentally slow and easily led. That's by no means limited to women.

Absolutely better care in the early years would be good but it's also very difficult, not just because of lack of money.

But the number one issue that is behind the problems these guys have now, and their crimes, and their violence, is drugs. They are addicts and it underlies everything they do. It's behind the fact that they can't maintain a place in housing and destroy their environments. It makes them incredibly vulnerable as well, and destroys their health and minds ever further.

I don't see how, that being the case, we can put people convicted of drug crimes in the community. The "war on drugs" approach might not have worked but the ignore it and let it carry on approach has been as bad or worse IMO.

SerendipityJane · 07/10/2024 10:50

Sandwichgen · 07/10/2024 10:49

A complete overhaul of CMS might work wonders, for a start.

And all the men in the room go "that won't happen"

Sandwichgen · 07/10/2024 10:49

A complete overhaul of CMS might work wonders, for a start.

biscuitandcake · 07/10/2024 10:47

RoyalCorgi · 07/10/2024 09:16

Thanks for the Malcolm Gladwell quote, RethinkingLife. That makes the point - and illustrates the dilemma - very nicely.

I think that the problems relating to men and women in prison are different from each other, though there is some overlap. There are far fewer women in prison, for a start, so it's easier to treat them as a homogenous group. Most are in for crimes relating to poverty (shoplifting etc) or for drug offences, in some cases having been forced into those crimes by male partners. Many have a history of prostitution, many are from care backgrounds, many have histories of domestic abuse (I think that something like half of all women in prison have brain damage from domestic violence.) When you put a woman in prison, you remove her from her children - often she is put many miles away, because there are so few women's prisons. So the family is broken up and the child suffers as well as the mother. It's very hard to argue the case that prison is the right place for these women.

It's true that men in prison often have mental health problems and a background in care and so on. And probably shoving them in with a load of other male criminals isn't going to lead to ideal outcomes. On the other hand, men are a harder problem to solve, in my view, because so many are in for offences of violence or sex offending. What are you going to do with them if you don't put them in prison? Sentences for crimes of violence or sexual assault are already, some would argue, remarkably lenient.

Regarding men in prison. 25% of them come from a background of being in care. Bouncing around from foster home to foster home to children's home, and then effectively spat out of the system aged 18 is deeply destabilising and traumatic. I have genuine sympathy for people who then end up getting sucked into petty crime, drug dealing, drug addiction, burglary and end up behind bars. Even violent criminals with that sort of background (although the public still need to be protected).
Which makes all the more reason to keep children out of care where the alternative isn't worst. And that goes right back to not imprisoning mothers where it isn't absolutely necessary. I'm the short term it's not fair to men, but it's not fair to children to put them in the care system for no good reason. And 50% of those children will grow up to be men....

SerendipityJane · 07/10/2024 10:43

Autumnowl · 07/10/2024 10:35

Why do they need to

Because that's how things work. Wherever you turn, someone has to make a profit somewhere.

Education.
Justice
Medicine
Transport
Social care
Housing
Water
Energy
Childcare
ect

will never progress until you have clearly identified who is going to be making money out of it, and how much.

Or so I have seen these last 45 years or so.

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