A book on autism which pushes the trans rights agenda

@CautiousLurker I don't think I've ever mentioned my location on here (so I wonder if you've muddled me with someone?) and I'm not aware of Appear - although it sounds like something I would steer clear of now if I was! 😬❤️

But yes, that makes a lot of sense and resonates.

some useful info for NT people to know, but some also suggesting that they should be able to ‘be themselves’ at work and work environments should make adjustments to this just as they do for other ‘reasonable adjustment’ conditions.
really not sure this would work out well! I’m hardly going to start interrupting conversations (as is my instinct sadly) or abruptly walking away saying ‘I need to end this conversation but I don’t know how to’ etc. I’m happy to learn ‘effective masking’ and indeed everyone needs to mask to an extent- for some NT people it’s just nothing like as exhausting- don’t you think? 🤔

This makes a lot of sense to me @Catgotyourbrain

I see it as similar to real gender dysphoria in men vs men identifying as women. Men with gender dysphoria can have a terrible time of it but men who choose to identify as women only want the sexy, sparkly, fun bits that make you (in your own mind) seem quirky and special, not the violence, domestic drudgery, physical problems and all the sexist crap that women can't identify out of.

Following the origins of 'identify as' in the deaf community - to mean you factually and indisputably are or have this condition / way of being but can choose whether or not to make that part of your personality / to declare it as a disability or difference - the expectation would be that there are lots of trans people who just are trans but don't declare it as a difference or as anything noteworthy. Who just get on with their normal lives.

Note: just being trans as a non-noteworthy way of being is not the same as just being a woman or man (of female or male sex).

So 'I am trans, I am a man (socially context, gender) and I identify as a man (explanation of difference between social and physical condition) are all consistent remarks.

Likewise, 'I am deaf, I am not disabled (social context) and I do not identify as disabled (explanation of difference between social and physical condition).

@CautiousLurker you must be local, DD went to Appeer, and I had to speak to someone first on the phone who seemed to be trying to ask if she was a natal female without saying any of those words, whilst I was also trying to ascertain if the group was just made up of boys who wouldn't have had any common issues with DD - also without saying thatin case they were as captured as the NAS. I was very confused at the time and that was my take anyway. They might have changed though, it was a while ago.

I'm having CBT through talking space at the minute
I'm not finding it helpful
It consists of me having to think of my negative thoughts as a parrot that I tell to shut up >
I've given up engaging ,I told them at the start I'd read cbt wasn't good for autistic individuals,but they assured me it works well.
I'm just going along with it now , because he's a trainee and I feel bad if I stop it .
It's just listening to him waffle on for half an hour every other week

How interesting.

i am on LinkedIn a lot for work and I’ve noticed that some of the nerudivergent ‘champions’ account (I follow as I thought might be interesting or useful) are very full currently with stuff about masking - some useful info for NT people to know, but some also suggesting that they should be able to ‘be themselves’ at work and work environments should make adjustments to this just as they do for other ‘reasonable adjustment’ conditions.

really not sure this would work out well! I’m hardly going to start interrupting conversations (as is my instinct sadly) or abruptly walking away saying ‘I need to end this conversation but I don’t know how to’ etc. I’m happy to learn ‘effective masking’ and indeed everyone needs to mask to an extent- for some NT people it’s just nothing like as exhausting- don’t you think? 🤔

Oh yes, I agree and I think there’s some research which backs you up. I’m also rubbish at sticking to routines like that, can’t bring myself to floss regularly if it saves my life (or at least my teeth!). I think the aspects of CBT that have helped me haven’t been the keeping a diary or starting new behavioural routine bits of it but the challenging screwy thinking and getting a wider perspective on my thinking so I don’t automatically spiral downwards when I’m feeling low.

Might be the comorbidity of ADHD in my case - he didn’t say it didn’t work for autistic people, he said it was often unhelpful for ‘NDs with my profile’ - ie ASD + ADHD. I cannot do diaries or anything requiring consistent daily routine or recording. Never been able to stick to a cleanse/moisturise&tone programme for more than a week or log calories/keep a food/mood diary for dieting or migraine monitoring, for example, which is often a core component of CBT approaches. I just forget about it. I get it now that I’ve learned bout ADHD through my DD.

I think it’s about understanding that therapists need to be flexible when it comes to ND clients.

[Paragraph removed by MNHQ at poster's request]

As you say, autism resilience is to some extent about understanding that even NTs socially mask (conform) and this is both an innate and socially driven behaviour, but that for many Autistic young adults it is massively more draining for them and probably much more conscious. It would help if NTs appreciated that they are also social maskers, but that many of them doing it instinctively and naturally.

I do think it ‘gets easier’ for NDs as our brains develop and mature, and as we become more practiced in social situations. I always describe to people how autistic people often do (appear to) get there in the end, but what comes intuitively to a NT teen/person after one social encounter, may take dozens (hundreds!) of similar/repeated encounters to become a practiced and produce a more natural response in an autistic person. It’s why so many people (who know bugger all about Au/DHD) guffawed when I mentioned 5-10 years ago that I thought I was on the spectrum. They also do so when I mention my youngest is. We come across as socially confident and are very talkative in 1-2-1 situations and when we know the other party. They don’t see the way we both will come home after a trip/conference/event and vomit all night with migraine from the stress of it all or the way we’ve almost not pitched up in the first place!

I’ve berated myself for the last few years, esp post lockdowns, for not trying the local autie social groups (Appeer is a local one for girls with autism that seems highly rated for eg. ), but I have avoided because of the fear I will arrive to meet a captured organisation… and have been even more fearful of asking the question up front of ‘is this a gender ideology neutral space?’ in case I am branded a transphobe. I would just like a space where my girl can meet other ND girls/young women and find people who like art, gaming etc in the knowledge there will be no judgement and, maybe one or two of them might click because they ‘get’ her… but without the side helping of rainbow dust.

Just to be contrary: I’m autistic and found EMDR pretty unhelpful (not damaging, just not all that helpful) but the things that have really helped me have been CBT-based. I suppose we’re all different, but I wouldn’t say it’s true that CBT automatically doesn’t work for autistic people, in fact I liked it perhaps because it appealed to my logical way of thinking.

For the trans people I know, the argument would be the same: in their view they are trans. "identify as" is terminology that tries to distance the subject from the identity: schoolchildren "identifying as cats," or GC people themselves say things like "trans identified men". I am trying not to debate trans identity itself, just convey other people's opinions, but I think the point about how we use language is well taken. We tend to say "identifies as" to mean that we don't agree with it or it is in some way questionable (someone who "identifies as autistic" but has no diagnosis), rather than simply saying one is such-and-such.

I think I thought that info useful because I’ve given up expecting the NHS to offer anything and always go privately now - so knowing to look for people with a range of therapeutic techniques in their arsenal is really useful.

I’ve never got on with CBT but found EMDR absolutely brilliant when I tried it years ago. I know a few practitioners locally, so can now enquire to see if that method might work for my DD - am aware ASD/ADHD presents differently even within families so it may still be a bust for her, but she’s only been offered online group DBT and CBT through CAMHS etc. I feel a little empowered on her behalf to ask the questions line: do you have experience of - and success with - working with ND clients and which techniques would you explore with them? Before this I’d have just assumed the therapist/clinical practitioner would have a mental toolbox of techniques and would be client centred and fluid. Feel a bit stupid for not having these discussions before wrt to her sessions.

Thank you for the link. I am always professional within my role. Keep my opinions to myself. I worry that while I do not verbalise what I am thinking, my facial expression shall not be suitably masked. When writing emails, I use the legal name with chosen name in brackets and avoid pronouns. It can be exhausting mentally as I am also dyslexic. I am all for dress how you want, be who you are, just be polite and treat others with manners. I am generally very liberal in my views, I dated a man who cross-dressed (I enjoyed that he understood make-up) although upon reflection he was incredibly misogynistic. Sex is biological, gender is a social construct in my opinion. I grew up a foster home where the male privilege was very much in situ including from my adoptive mother. Always very relieved that this ideology was not around in my teens, early twenties, I would have been removing my breasts.

I lost a friend to the trans-Rowling issue a couple of years ago ‘never contact me or my family again’.
she has a trans child. Pretty sure both her and child are ASD; in fact I’d bet a lot of money. Also explains the very black and white thinking and switch from friend to ‘enemy’.

upset me a lot at the time

💐💪

I am still seeing it with my work despite the Cass Report, all those young people have an EHCP with ADHD, Autism, GDD etc… yet are socially transitioned on their EHCPs pronouns changed etc…and supported by the colleges, even the internal record system has a tab for gender identity.

Whilst I fully appreciate that I might be seeing it through a biased lens of my own experience (I've had lots of conversations, including with the local authority in relation to my daughter's EHCP), I have a feeling that the percentage of people presenting with gender dysphoria who are autistic is now way higher than the GIDS data from 2019 (35% of referrals) or the estimate from two GIDS/Tavistock clinicians when also including children who met the diagnostic criteria for autism but didn't have a diagnosis (48%). Here's a link to their paper:
https://repository.tavistockandportman.ac.uk/1910/

I was diagnosed at 50 to ,I've so many books on autism in women
They actually nearly put me of going for assessment,as I couldn't recognise myself in any of them .
I've told very few people also ,
With trans I just keep my opinions to myself as I'm very factual and black and white ,where as my adult daughter has strong opposing views to mine ...I just think crack on ...back in the real world who has time for this shit.
But yes ,I'm in a WhatsApp group of supposedly autistic adults ,with one person who has a trans child ,and yes ,no one dares bring the subject up in any way ,and at every opportunity,it feels like that is mentioned..
I don't bother commenting any more

As a side point both the trans and autistic people I know hate the usage "identify as". In their view either you are or you aren't. "Identify as" seems to be much more the usage of people who want to see themselves as allies, not by the people themselves.

@knitnerd90 can I ask a question to unpick this? Whilst I completely agree that "identifying as" autistic makes no sense whatsoever, "identifying as" in the context of gender identity makes perfect sense to me. Do you know why your trans(-identifying) friends don't see it that way.

With autism, you either are or you aren't. As PPs (and the OP) have said above, there are people who suspect they might be but it's quite a leap to take this suspicion and "identify as autistic" without a diagnosis.

With gender identity, you are your sex (that's a physical reality... you can't identify out of cervical cancer or prostate cancer, for example) but you identify as something other than your sex e.g. as the opposite sex, as non-binary or as something else. I appreciate that it feels real to the person who is doing the "identifying as" but it still doesn't impact what you actually are (see above re sex-specific cancer examples).

"Utter bullcrap if you mean they left rekationships because they changed their gender then yes I am sorry for the family breakdown and I can see why it feels like that side note my ex partner did this some of you would call me a trans widow. I find that term very disgusting as that implies he they died they didn't they just had been living a lie for many years. Yes I was angry and upset but now I realised that she is much better for this happier we are still good friends and thats fine by me"

However...you don't seem to be able to remember if your ex is a he, she or they ?????

What you're saying here makes soooooooooooooooo much sense.

If you ever write a book on masking and its impact on autistic people, please can I have a copy? 😁

Judging by what my friend said, and I will say she's American and not GC, there's better work on the topic.

Thanks for that explanation @knitnerd90 it's idle speculation on my part really!

I posted about this on another autism thread a few days ago but the DSM committee's decision was made for good reasons; the criteria as written were poor and didn't correspond to long term outcomes. The problem is that they haven't found meaningful criteria that do.