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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

A thank you

55 replies

Enoxaparin · 28/09/2024 13:18

I first found out about mumsnet when I was sixteen. I'd come to terms with being a lesbian by then and like most young lesbians growing up in homophobic environments, I was desperate for community. I spent a lot of time on social media, especially reddit and I was extremely keen to be a good ally to the most oppressed group in my community or so I believed.

From what I'd read on reddit, mumsnet was a den of transphobes and bigots and nazis so rightfully I made a post and left a few scolding comments. It's so ridiculous when I think about it, but I had to use my "cis privilege" for good.

I was rightfully educated by posters on FWR but I wasn't ready I suppose. I spent months browsing the board, growing angrier and gultier as I found myself agreeing with some of the posters. On one occasion, I felt so guilty, I went onto a dating app I was much too young for and matched with a trans identified male person as some sort of penance. I didn't meet up with them though, thankfully.

At the time, my closest friends were two other lesbians both identifying as trans. I couldn't reconcile the image of my funny, shy friends with the news articles posted here so I decided not to believe. I used to lurk on here, trying my hardest to come up with arguments and reasonings against the facts I saw, eventually just giving up because "I won't understand due to my lack of lived experience". I ended up blocking mumsnet from my browser and spent a year identifying as non binary due to what I called "chest dysphoria" but was really me suffering from an ed.

I got into uni for medicine and I think then the walls started to crumble a little. I remember a friend at the time wanted to start testosterone and she seemed to believe it would make her taller and stronger and correct her "wrong puberty" but from my lectures and teachings, I knew that wasn't true. I tried to explain and of course I was met with calls to educate myself. At the time, I remember thinking to myself that if I, as a first year medic was starting to lose faith in the whole changing sex idea, how do actual doctors who've been in education for decades, maintain their belief?

I dismissed my doubts though and joined my uni's lgbt soc that was lgb in name alone. I complained once that there were never any socials for lesbian or gay men, but again I was told to recognise my privilege. At this point, I had genuinely begun to believe I had become transphobic from all my hate reading mumsnet. Very ridiculous, I know. Nevertheless, I had to fix this by interacting with actual trans people like I had been told.

I joined discord groups, read subreddits, watched movies and tv and stopped avoiding uni socials for QTPOC+ in the hopes that I would be a better ally or something. But the more I spent time with them, the more I knew that all those posts I'd read years ago were more true than I was willing to admit. It seemed that everywhere I went was more and more dismissive of the fact that misogyny was real and lesbians were homosexual women. I felt like I was going insane and I had no one to speak to.

Then I saw a tiktok video positing that JKR and many women with unsavory beliefs had lied about their abuse and the repeated harassment of Amber Heard took off. In real life I had people I considered friends saying disgusting things to me under the guise of "queer rights". It seemed the only women with sense left were the so called bigots and nazis and transphobes. It took me a year to stop believing, but I did eventually and thinking back to how deeply I'd fallen in as a child makes me so sad. But I am thankful that I found this website, thankful for the women who are brave enough to speak up and thankful that I just couldn't stay away.

OP posts:
MarieDeGournay · 28/09/2024 18:05

ElleWoods15 · 28/09/2024 16:19

@MarieDeGournay I certainly don’t want to derail the thread. All I wanted to do was to point out that questioning doesn’t have to lead to the same conclusion for everyone. Having done that I shall gracefully retire.

Fwiw, @Enoxaparin, while we don’t share the same viewpoint, I’m glad you’ve got to a position that you feel comfortable with. 😊

(Grammar edit!)

Edited

Thank you for taking my post in the spirit it was intended, I feel all soppy nowHalo
There's a lot to disagree about, and we often get quite er... robust on FWR and that's grand but Enoxaparin's post was so positive about the value of MN for her that I got a bit 'not in front of the children' about disagreeing so vehemently so soon in the thread..
Good wishes to all.Flowers

As you were. Self-appointed head-girl signing offGrin

NPET · 28/09/2024 17:30

Fantastic post. Interesting to read and to agree/disagree with (mainly the former!).
I too am pleased (usually) by the posts and posters here, compared with most sites.
Gay or straight, we are both women. And THAT is what we need to fight for. Well, OK, in my opinion anyway. Female spaces and female rights.

SORRY if I seem to have invaded your space (!), just describing how I agree with you!

ArabellaScott · 28/09/2024 17:16

It's the creation of silos and tribes and 'others' that is so damaging, I think.

I hope, OP, that you've got or are starting to get a really good, solid, dependable, supportive and helpful community around you.

Actually I'm not even sure about the word 'community' anymore. Another word, like 'inclusive' that has come to give me an uncomfortable feeling, as though being part of one is some kind of prissy obligation or weird sect. Another bloody tribal culty bollockswhang.

So. I hope you have friends, and acquaintances, and family, and people you can rub along with. Glad you're here.

PurpleSparkledPixie · 28/09/2024 17:09

ElleWoods15 · 28/09/2024 14:44

With respect, questioning does not necessarily lead to coming to a GC viewpoint. My own experience is coming from a gender critical starting point, but questioning, reading around the subject on both sides of the debate, and most importantly engaging with trans people, and ultimately coming to the conclusion that I was wrong.

It’s fine that you and other posters on FWR have your viewpoint. But don’t assume that those who don’t agree with you are ‘the ones who do not question’ and therefore ‘the ones who are lost’.

You have misunderstood me. EVERYTHING in life should be questioned and nobody should blindly accept anything they are told. From politics to police to schools to education to News or social media, even the weather should be questioned (hello Michael Fish!).

Now I have explained try re-reading my post and you too will understand what I meant by those who are lost.

hihelenhi · 28/09/2024 16:58

ElleWoods15 · 28/09/2024 15:39

Constructive.

Soz, deleted post, as I see may derail. Quite right too. Although I too am curious as to how questioning can lead one to a conclusion that remains 100% factually untrue... sounds like social pressure cave. And to return to the OP, yes, we know that it is immense, and social pressure is incredibly difficult to go against.

Lovelyview · 28/09/2024 16:39

@Enoxaparin Thanks for posting your experience. My DD is a lesbian and very be kind and respectful of pronouns, etc. Last time we had a discussion she basically said she wished the whole trans thing would go away but as she has lots of non- binary friends, etc. she can't really reject it without rejecting them. I hope you have got some friends you can be yourself with in real life. I also think people on this board are generally sympathetic to young people, especially young women, who have been sold gender ideology as a cure for all the difficulties of puberty because many of us were/are gender non-conforming women so we know wearing t shirts and jeans, having short hair and no makeup and being interested in science doesn't mean a girl is really a boy. I wish things weren't so difficult for young lesbians these days.

ElleWoods15 · 28/09/2024 16:19

@MarieDeGournay I certainly don’t want to derail the thread. All I wanted to do was to point out that questioning doesn’t have to lead to the same conclusion for everyone. Having done that I shall gracefully retire.

Fwiw, @Enoxaparin, while we don’t share the same viewpoint, I’m glad you’ve got to a position that you feel comfortable with. 😊

(Grammar edit!)

MarieDeGournay · 28/09/2024 16:14

Just stoppit, ElleWoods15 and RandySavage, you're killing the vibe/wrecking the buzz.

It was a very welcome and heartening post from Enoxaparin, so can we keep it like that? Just for one whole thread?

And yes I know 'I'm not the boss of you' and nobody appointed me as head-girl, so please take this in the light-hearted way it was intended. Smile

Runor · 28/09/2024 16:12

Elle, I am really interested to understand your pov. My definition of ‘woman’ has always been adult human female. You say that transwomen are women, but clearly they aren’t adult human females. So I can see that you are using a different definition from the one I’m using. Can you describe what that is please?

Edited to add, what word would you use to describe adult human females? Eg in the case where a particular health condition affected 10% of ‘women’ but only 2% of ‘men’ how would you describe that?

Thankyou

Enoxaparin · 28/09/2024 15:43

MrsOvertonsWindow · 28/09/2024 15:01

Well said Pixie.
One of the most damaging things in this whole disaster has been the instruction #nodebate. Do not question, think, analyse, evaluate. Just do as we say.

Thank you for your posts @Enoxaparin. I hope that you continue to "find your tribe" and that the return to evidence based medicine and rationality currently emerging in medicine post Cass will lead to everyone being able to state facts, science & evidence without fear in the future.

Thank you. Flowers

Thank you for your kind words, I also hope that more people become brave enough to speak out and the medical profession stops this harm under the guise of treatment.

OP posts:
SilenceInside · 28/09/2024 15:43

@Enoxaparin thanks for giving your personal story and experience here, it's very useful and interesting to read. If a little depressing in places! But your message is definitely one of hope, that people can reason their way through the social conditioning and pressure to conform to what seems to be the dominant narrative. As illogical as it is.

Enoxaparin · 28/09/2024 15:41

WarriorN · 28/09/2024 13:42

That's such a shame.

You definitely have the right sort of attitude to be going into this profession.

Not just the pov around trans; critical thinking and reflective practises stand us in 'good stead' in many professions, especially when treating patients, working in a caring or educational field.

Thank you, I’ve always been brought up to question things so it’s strange when one topic is so forbidden

OP posts:
ElleWoods15 · 28/09/2024 15:39

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Constructive.

RandySavage · 28/09/2024 15:32

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

ElleWoods15 · 28/09/2024 15:31

RandySavage · 28/09/2024 15:18

Wow, I'm only that sensitive when I know I'm in the wrong but don't want to admit it.

So, as you've now done your questioning and realised you were wrong before, do you believe that people can change sex? That transwomen actually are women? That lesbians who will not have sex with transwomen are bigots?

Do you know you’re wrong but don’t want to admit it? I mean, that’s fine but don’t take it out on me!

I do indeed believe that trans women are women, Randy, and I don’t believe there is a change there. They were always women, but this differs from the sex that was assigned to them at birth.

Lesbians, like anyone else of any sexual orientation, are IMO free to have sex with any adult they choose providing it’s consensual. If a lesbian happens not to be attracted to a trans woman, why is that an issue? I happen to be a heterosexual woman but that doesn’t mean I’m obliged to be attracted to every man I see does it?

What you’re trying to do with your charmingly put ‘are lesbians who don’t do dick bigots’ question is to suggest that trans allies are necessarily attacking GC lesbians, and are therefore homophobic. But that’s your construct, not what’s actually happening.

RandySavage · 28/09/2024 15:18

Wow, I'm only that sensitive when I know I'm in the wrong but don't want to admit it.

So, as you've now done your questioning and realised you were wrong before, do you believe that people can change sex? That transwomen actually are women? That lesbians who will not have sex with transwomen are bigots?

ElleWoods15 · 28/09/2024 15:15

RandySavage · 28/09/2024 15:12

Which bit was rude?

oh soz, your last line was meant as a constructive comment? My mistake…..🙄

RandySavage · 28/09/2024 15:12

Which bit was rude?

ElleWoods15 · 28/09/2024 15:11

RandySavage · 28/09/2024 14:51

"and ultimately coming to the conclusion that I was wrong"

So you now believe that people can change sex, that transwomen actually are women, and that lesbians who don't do dick are bigots?

... maybe try a little more questioning.

Maybe try accepting that not everyone has to agree with you and don’t just immediately lapse into being rude to those that don’t.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 28/09/2024 15:01

PurpleSparkledPixie · 28/09/2024 13:50

The ones who will come out the other side are the ones who seek to understand and question.

The ones who do not question are the ones who are lost.

Always question @Enoxaparin , even if the answers are uncomfortable ❤

Well said Pixie.
One of the most damaging things in this whole disaster has been the instruction #nodebate. Do not question, think, analyse, evaluate. Just do as we say.

Thank you for your posts @Enoxaparin. I hope that you continue to "find your tribe" and that the return to evidence based medicine and rationality currently emerging in medicine post Cass will lead to everyone being able to state facts, science & evidence without fear in the future.

Thank you. Flowers

RandySavage · 28/09/2024 14:51

"and ultimately coming to the conclusion that I was wrong"

So you now believe that people can change sex, that transwomen actually are women, and that lesbians who don't do dick are bigots?

... maybe try a little more questioning.

ElleWoods15 · 28/09/2024 14:44

PurpleSparkledPixie · 28/09/2024 13:50

The ones who will come out the other side are the ones who seek to understand and question.

The ones who do not question are the ones who are lost.

Always question @Enoxaparin , even if the answers are uncomfortable ❤

With respect, questioning does not necessarily lead to coming to a GC viewpoint. My own experience is coming from a gender critical starting point, but questioning, reading around the subject on both sides of the debate, and most importantly engaging with trans people, and ultimately coming to the conclusion that I was wrong.

It’s fine that you and other posters on FWR have your viewpoint. But don’t assume that those who don’t agree with you are ‘the ones who do not question’ and therefore ‘the ones who are lost’.

PurpleSparkledPixie · 28/09/2024 13:50

The ones who will come out the other side are the ones who seek to understand and question.

The ones who do not question are the ones who are lost.

Always question @Enoxaparin , even if the answers are uncomfortable ❤

pleatspleats · 28/09/2024 13:42

Social pressure to conform to the accepted ideology is immense.

WarriorN · 28/09/2024 13:42

That's such a shame.

You definitely have the right sort of attitude to be going into this profession.

Not just the pov around trans; critical thinking and reflective practises stand us in 'good stead' in many professions, especially when treating patients, working in a caring or educational field.