Why do all trans discussions end in a bun fight?

This point is always ignored, isn't it?

For those reading along on this thread, just a reminder that we have recently been shown just how people's transgender identities are based on philosophical belief.

Because to be a person with a transgender identity is not based on having gender dysphoria. We have been told this now by professional academics as well as trans people themselves.

Therefore the only commonality for people with transgender identities is that their philosophical belief. Meaning no one needs to comply with another persons philosophical belief. No one.

For instance, taking the example of a male person who believes they are female.

No male can ever experience life as a woman. They can only ever experience life as a male person who believes they are a woman.

Even when they 'act' like a woman, they are acting as they believe a 'woman' should act. Which is fucking misogynistic!

Even if they are treated 'as a woman' by some people, they are being treated as a 'male who presents as a woman and believes they are a woman'. Because their every reaction is based on that. Not on them being female in any way.
Even when they have extreme body modifications, it is to be their own concept of what a female looks like to them. It is not what a female is. How can it be?

The only way a person can experience life as a woman, is to have a female body, formed around the production of large gametes, even if it doesn't produce those and to navigate their life based on the decisions they and society makes that revolve around them having that body.

A male can conceptualise what it might be like to be a female, but that is all it ever is - their concept of being female.

They may do it because they don't feel they fit into how they conceptualise how a male person interacts with the world (ie. their own stereotypes around being male) or they do it because they want to be seen as a female (using their own stereotypes of how a female navigates life). It really doesn't matter though. Their motivation is irrelevant to the outcome.

Which is that they will always be just a male person who believes they are something they are objectively not.

How can the material reality be any different? This is why someone's gender is only based on someone's philosophical belief. And philosophical beliefs are fine for people to hold, but not one person in the UK has to comply with another's philosophical belief.

No matter how kind or respectful that person who is trying to shame you into complying to use that language tells you that it is to use the preferred language, it is someone who is demanding that you support their own philosophical belief.

And no one has to pretend that any person on this earth has changed sex or is the sex they identify as but is materially not.

And those attempting to shame others in doing so, are not the 'kind' people that they would have you believe.

The OP now has an answer to their question - this 'trans discussion' hasn't descended into a bun fight. It has -perhaps inevitably - run aground at times on the rocky shore of 'what exactly do you mean by trans?' and 'defending X does not mean attacking Y, if Y is not undermining X'.

This topic involves deeply-held convictions, firmly expressed; but bun fight? No.
I hope OP is satisfied with this outcome, and I hope nobody would ever dream of coming on here to try to provoke a bun fight.

no she hasn’t but I think unfortunately this thread popped up on trending …sometimes it does feel like people are lead down particular paths to end up on a bun fight!

I wonder what it is that makes posters here so reluctant to face being misogynistic or anti women. Itseems like a strange phenomenon to be able to happily attack women for not being part of a destructive ideology and then innocently claim not you aren't anti women. It's bizarre
Fixed that for you

Except sex continues to exist regardless.

Quite.

@Name5 The reason these threads all go the same way is because most posters on Mumsnet think gender identity theory is toxic and harmful. Looking at your posting history, it seems that you share this belief, and wish that your daughter was not caught up in it. Nobody here wishes harm to people like your daughter; on the contrary, we are generally appalled at the damage this belief system is doing to society and young people in particular. I hope your daughter finds a way to come to terms with who she is.

Some people are very intensely determined to believe that everyone hates them and wishes them ill. The truth is most people couldn't give a.damn how others live their lives so long as it doesn't impact on others or vulnerable people.

Fear and loathing? It's the exact opposite when it comes down to young girls like the OPs daughter. I feel extremely sad and worried for them.

I think the problem is the word transphobic - if I have a phobia about something I run from the room screaming if I see one.

The pro trans lot use it to stir up anger etc -I am not transphobic but I don’t think male born should be competing in women’s sports against female born.

its a deliberate ploy by the pro trans to other anyone who doesn’t support trans in prisons,sport etc -we are all being manipulated by them.

At least that poster isn't automatically saying "yes, Stonewall are correct and believing that your sex doesn't match your gender requires the belief that there are gender identities that match the sex of one's body".

So maybe they are thinking about it for themselves. Who knows?!

Has OP been back, or did they just make a thread to vaguely accused everyone on this board of random stuff prompted by a thread elsewhere, followed by some posters popping in to tell.us what we actually think and how awful we all are?

It’s like banging your head against a brick wall isn’t it. Dear @Blanketyre - I know you’ve been told hundreds of times and you are purposefully deaf to anyone else’s opinions but….. IT’S ABOUT PROTECTING WOMENS RIGHTS, IT IS A PROTECTED BELIEF, IT IS NOT PHOBIC TO DEFEND THE EROSION OF OUR RIGHTS.

If being pro women's rights is "anti trans" then being pro trans rights is "anti women".

You do realise that actually it's because as mothers we very very much care about the wellbeing of our children caught up in this ideology that we fight against it? No fear or loathing.

Can you not see how the ideology is destructive though?
Telling children they can literally change sex?
Telling women they have no right to single sex services?
Telling young lesbians they must do dick or they’re transphobes?
Taking vulnerable autistic girls and telling them that as they’re uncomfortable with bodily changes at puberty and not fitting in with their NT peers that they must be boys?
It’s mind boggling that so many people can wilfully ignore these things in order to cling to “their truth”.

When you can actually describe what being transphobic and anti-trans entails, maybe posters will be able to face if they are or not, by your non definition.

I would class it as a reasonable comment.

Why it's a statement of fact and a legally protected one at that.
If you honestly believe that not following your ideology is all it takes to be anti trans might I kindly suggest that you educate yourself on the law and come to terms with the fact that someone disagreeing with your ideology due to the harms it heeps on women, children, young adults and lgb people are entitled to do so without your false accusations and smears.
Edited for typos

Imagine coming onto a board and trying to persuade people that you know their thoughts, feelings and beliefs better than they do. Bizarre.

If by ‘trans’ you mean people who believe in this ideology, then why do you not care about the harms it does to them? The hugely increased suicide rate that result from ‘transition’ and living your life pursuing the unobtainable, the deaths and morbidities of surgeries with over 80% complication rates, the stopping of brain maturation of children and their reduction in IQ and osteopenia from puberty blockers, the sterilisation of children, the risk inappropriate medical treatments from lying about your sex on medical records, the crushed ribs from binders, the lack of safeguarding on helplines and websites despite the over-representation of sex offenders within the ‘trans’ population?

😂😂😂😂 no pet. Try harder.

Aren't you a bit embarrassed to say this when you literally can't say what you think trans means?

Why are you reluctant to say so? Do you think you might be wrong? I don't care if you're wrong, I'm trying to understand what you mean. Your definition of trans might include me, as I don't have a gender identity that i consider to match my sex.

But you won't say. Come on, get into it! Have a think about your own beliefs! If you thought that trans meant "wants to be the opposite sex" then just say so and we can commiserate with how confusing it can be!

Because it’s the same conversation.

Your daughter chooses to dress as a man. Fine. She’s still a woman. If people choose to address her as male then that’s fine. If people choose to address her as female then that’s also fine.

How someone chooses to dress shouldn’t have the power to alter their legal persona. A man dressing as a woman should not get chess to single sex spaces.

A parent whose child has started identifying as a therian who comes to MN for advice should be told about the possible negative aspects of the “lifestyle”. Someone whose child is thinking about socially transitioning should be told about the dangers of affirmation. Someone whose child is contemplating puberty blockers should be told about the lifelong ramifications. Someone whose child is applying for jobs and mentions they’re NB at the earliest possible opportunity should be told they may find it difficult to get a job.

It’s not a big fight or a pile on, it’s people who don’t accept that gender ideology is totally harmless. These points of law you have such disdain for are there to protect women and girls and by permitting the erosion of these rights by permitting men who dress as women into single sex spaces has to be part of the discussion. You can’t select which parts of gender ideology are acceptable and which aren’t. We can see what happens when children are affirmed in their chosen genders ad the lifelong impact it can have. I’ve been in this fight for a few years now, but if I were new to the table I would definitely want to know everything I could before making a decision.

We don’t need a new category. People get advice and if they don’t like it they can choose to ignore it.