Feel sad that more people in the media don’t speak up

Ben Elton frustrates me. On several issues, not just this, he's really close to getting it, then he pulls back. Either it's thinking he's already got to a sensible position, or he's afraid of following his doubts to their conclusion.

Ah cool, thanks @Thelnebriati I've got that one and read it ages ago. Twice I think. But I had no idea about any of this stuff back then so that line would have completely passed me by. I assume I processed as a combination of "well, duh. Obviously" and an assumption that nobody would be daft enough to think otherwise.

BonfireLady - I think it was Past Mortem? I also thought it was a detective that said it.

Stephen Fry.

I’m desperately hoping Hugh Laurie doesn’t agree with him.

Monty Python obviously understood.

I’ve lost the post about Cambridge footlights I wanted to quote. Bah.

Grrrrrr. FFS, Ben. Wake up. Or more specifically, wake up again. It sounds like you did once upon a time but have since dozed off.
🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬

I really hope that someone on here knows him and shows him this thread. He's clearly got a few fans of his work on here.

Edited to add: out of interest, which book was that? The chronology might be relevant. His "I'm Ben Elton and my pronouns are he/him" introduction of Jordan Gray was in October 2022.

I just read Ben Elton's books, and in one of them a character says something like 'we don't put men in women's prisons even if they are wearing a dress'. It was presented as a normal, everyday, common sense opinion and I'll be really pissed off if he's changed his mind about that.

Not sure about Ben Elton's views on women's rights. I suspect he's very close to getting it but never will.

This clip sums that up beautifully:

The clip cuts off the sentence "now that's what I can a knob gag" just before the end. To be fair to Ben (and I'm being as understanding as I can here), this was live TV and Jordan Gray had just ripped off that pink dress, "wowed" the audience with a piano-played-using-penis technique and then ended the delightful show with arms and legs in a star-shape while naked. The lyrics of Jordan's song were as offensive as the words in that Minstrels clip as far as appropriation and parody are concerned:

https://gendercriticalwoman.blog/2024/04/22/im-better-than-you-jordan-gray/

Back to Ben: I'm going to read Identity Politics as it sounds right up my street. I still heartily recommend Blind Faith, as per my comments above.

Ben Elton is an example of so many men who get sooooooooooooooooo close to getting it but probably never will if they can't see it already. I assume his takeaway from Jordan's lyrics was that it was a hilariously edgy "stick it to the establishment" type of song. To be fair to Ben, it took me ages to understand why JK Rowling and others talked about the erasure of women and the sexism behind how people like Jordan Gray behave. It was one of the final things I understood about the impact of enforced gender identity belief. The final, final puzzle piece for me was why LGB and T didn't belong together. The impact on vulnerable, autistic children was my entry point and I was already pretty obsessed with understanding that side of things (to help my daughter) by the time those pennies dropped. Anyone who doesn't spend much time thinking about it at all - I'll assume Ben is such a person - is unlikely to get there, most likely because they think they already are.

I agree, disappointed and annoyed at outspoken media people who are unusually quiet on this particular issue, especially those who shout loudly about everything else ie Caitlin Moran and Gary Linekar.

Used to like and respect Billy Bragg, think he's a total arrogant arse now.

I feel like I have been naive in liking and respecting so many celebs who I now see as gutless and unprincipled.

Ben Elton's novel 'Identity Crisis' is a good read on cancel culture and identity politics. Has he come out against women's rights or is he staying away from the topic ? I haven't seen him live but from this book he seemed to have a sensible view of it all.

@TemuSpecialBuy she was awful in the interview but as it says near the end continued the conversation with Hadley via email, and was open to listening, unlike the majority of celebs who are cloth eared and even vehemently shout at women such as Jane Godley.

It's clear she'd swallowed silly stuff about trisomies and genetic differences. But that has been the overwhelming narrative for left leaning people in the US and Canada.

Yes Ben Elton is the biggie for me. My hero! And so many of his books and stand up routines are still so relevant today. But watching Ben Elton Live currently on Prime. I can’t think of anything else to say that others haven’t already said, I just think come on Ben. I mean come on you know this is all bollocks! Just speak your own truth that’s all we can do. He’s currently touring live and I haven’t managed to get tickets this time. Would be interested to know if his thoughts have evolved since the last tour

Preach
This interview is absolutely pathetic

https://www.theguardian.com/books/ng-interactive/2022/feb/19/margaret-atwood-on-feminism-culture-wars

I felt embarrassed for Margaret reading this. Has she been lobotomised?

the transmen comment she makes was the lamest most implausible “gotcha” moment that she can’t have said with conviction.
Hadley must have been eye rolling so hard but then even she backtracks
presumably the weight and pressure of his gaze - under the guardians his eye etc

just absolute cringe

https://www.theguardian.com/books/ng-interactive/2022/feb/19/margaret-atwood-on-feminism-culture-wars?CMP=ShareiOSAppp_Other

But then – as she has done so often in her books – Atwood surprises me with a plot twist. Just an hour or so later, she sends me several emails, some about the Galloway case, others elaborating on her thoughts about gender. This becomes an ongoing back and forth, in which she lays out her views, patiently and thoughtfully. Most of it is off the record, but I think she won’t mind me saying that, ultimately, we both want the same thing, which is truth and fairness.

The more we email, the more I realise we are not arguing about this the way I’m used to arguing about it, ie the social media way, which is just shouting at one another and not listening to the other’s point of view. We are genuinely curious to understand one another and send each other links we think the other will find interesting. After several days of this, I become self-conscious about how much of her time I am taking up, time she should be spending on her new book of short stories, and I apologise for being so stubbornly argumentative. She writes straight back: “Don’t worry, Hadley. Some people won’t really discuss things with me because they are intimidated. I agree with Orwell: the truth does matter.”

I believe that Atwood had a very big chat with Hadley Freeman and seemed to move more towards understanding the issues but hasn't been overly public. Preferring to critique the lack of debate and silencing

Robin Wince spoils Infinite Monkey Cage for me, he's quite overbearing.

i understand why people are such flakes

I have some ‘contrary’ views and people just don’t like hearing anything that contradicts a norm. In this case it’s ’kindness and compassion to trans people’ that’s the norm. I get it completely, it’s not easy to go against a group held belief, you will be ostracised. And in this case your ostracism will align you with ‘far right bigots and terfs’

i understand it, but it’s still cowardly in the extreme. I don’t even think they believe it, but such is the social conformity they allow themselves to ignore their own actual thoughts. Scary stuff how disconnected people can be from their own thoughts.

The other problem is admitting you are wrong, lots / most people struggle with that and would rather just dig deeper.

Plus, he’s a massive hypocrite, because his entire schtick, such as it is, on the otherwise very good Infinite Monkey Cage podcast, is taking the piss out of Brian Cox’s accent/geekiness/popularity/hair.

Isn’t that pretty much what he’s accusing RG of? Or is it cute when you do it, Robin?

(I wonder what Brian Cox’s take on gender ideology is, incidentally. He’s decidedly non-woo in all other areas).

Robin Ince is about as funny as a dose of thrush.

I have kind of a revisionist take on the history of BBC comedy. The approved version is, 1960s satire was great, then there was lazy conservative comedy in the 1970s, then alternative comedy came along and revitalised the scene.

A class analysis would say that in the 1960s BBC comedy was monopolised by Cambridge Footlights alumni, then in the 1970s they thought "oh fuck, our ratings are going down, let's bring in some popular club comedians", then in the 1980s Cambridge Footlights regained its monopoly. And despite all the radical posturing, it really was Cambridge Footlights, and it has been ever since.

I will never fail to be amused by Roy Chubby Brown opposing the Iraq War when lots of "alternative" comedians were very cosy with the governing class.

Which boils down to: media people beget media people, and it's usually only older successful performers who have been grandfathered into the system - Ricky Gervais or Dave Chappelle - who can dissent.

JKR too I suppose - it helps that she mostly stays in Edinburgh and doesn't care about being on the celebrity party circuit.

The way I see it for what it's worth:

• Media people get jobs in the media because they're entertaining and because they have contacts. The middle classification of all forms of popular media is sadly complete
• These people are often educated beyond their innate intellectual ability
• This means there's no room for independent thinkers. Herd thinking prevails.
• Also there's probably a huge unspoken pressure to assume the 'fashionable' view. Otherwise you might get frozen out of the North London dinner party circuit, oh noooees!
• The media environment is bitchy af and so you'll defo get bullied if you espouse wrongthink
• So everyone toes the line

Oh yes and

• Caitlin Moran has ALWAYS been a posho champagne socialist pick me who is blinded by delusions of her own coolness.

It was Robin Ince on Radio4 this morning that reminded me. I'd say it's obvious that Gervais is a bullying idiot. But honestly Robin, he's by far the more famous of the 2 of you so jumping on a bandwagon now is just irritating and desperate.

Coincidence reading this thread and seeing comment on RG because I read this earlier today.

I can quite believe that RG isn’t a nice person (along with lots of other famous comedians), but this article bugged me. Robin Ince has waited twenty years to say how horrible RG is and it was RG’s trans views that made him speak up? Also trots out argument that if someone you don’t like finds a comedian funny, there must be something wrong with the comedian.

I also loved the dinosaur sketch, soupy!

Ricky Gervais bullied me so badly I got a rash, says comedian

www.thetimes.com/article/c6c595a8-3e48-41eb-902b-271f78c15b68?shareToken=5167e46afbf72bc4edad477d5b923495

*its terribly fitting lid

Auto correct grammar fail.

The thing is that I know where Margaret was coming from, and for someone of her generation and background it makes total sense. She was watching what was happening in Iran and her idea was "what if Iran but American Christians".

So I know why she imagined a pro-natalist authoritarianism. It would seem natural for her at that time. I find PD James more interesting now because she was imagining what would happen to society in a fertility bust, and that's closer to where we actually are.

Thank you for the recommendations @StainlessSteelMouse from me too. I love a prophetic novel. I still love the Handmaid's Tale and I still think that Blind Faith is utterly brilliant. Jaw-droppingly so in today's post-covid "culture wars".

I still love Ben Elton's humour over all. The only previous time I was disappointed in him was when I finally saw him live and everything in his show was material that he'd already done on TV. Yes the hot metal teapot handle and it's terribly fitting lid (standard issue in 80s cafes) that burns the person using it is great observational comedy but I can't keep politely laughing when I had heard it soooooo many times before in your various TV shows 🤦‍♀️ But I forgave you because I love your other stuff.

Come on Ben, wake up. Please give Mark a nudge and wake him up too.

Then go and have a chat with Margaret and work out how to break yourselves free from the ridiculous situation that you wrote about in your own respective novels. To borrow a favourite word of yours, Ben, you are both being numpties.