Feel sad that more people in the media don’t speak up

I think his "conscious choice" is to not piss off his wife, to be honest. All power to him there, too.

DT is a dad standing up for his child, advocating for what he believes will be a better world for that child to grow up in. I imagine he’s made a conscious choice that that is more important to him than whether or not you go and see a film he’s in @BlueLimeRun . All power to him I say.

I understand people keeping their heads down. They will have seen people losing work and friendships for speaking out.

What really makes me angry is when people pretend to try to engage with the idea of why sex-based rights are important and then say they have to give up because either it’s “just too toxic” - looking at you, Jeremy Vine - or the Graham Norton line that there’s no cancel culture, only “accountability culture”.

For example when Lorraine Kelly got Kathleen Stock (it’s on YouTube) on her awful show, just so she could publicly tell her she hadn’t been cancelled (“cos you’re on the tv now”) and wring her hands about why we can’t we “all be nicer to each other”. Before KS had left the building she was on Twitter to say “for the avoidance of doubt, I believe trans women are women”. 😡

I can’t watch DT anymore- he’s definitely lost a lot of viewers- I’m avoiding a film I would otherwise have gone to see which is a bit annoying.

Disappointing about Marian Keyes.

I actually think all celebs should shut up. About everything apart from their jobs. Do we know, or need to know, what the manager of our local tesco thinks about GI or anything else? I know I don't. I don't need to know which celebs are vegan, which celebs are church goers, which celebs vote labour. I don't need to know. I also don't need to know what David Tennant think about it. But he shouts about it so we know. If people are quiet, it may well be because they believe one way or another, or it may be because they've no actual opinions. That's the whole thing about being quiet. Nobody knows.

No.

Any celebrity should be allowed to share their views, whether I agree with them or not.

Unless I've missed something JKR's views don't involve her telling those who believe (that we all have a gender identity) that they shouldn't believe it. Instead, she's pointing out the consequences of this belief being pushed, as if it were a truth, at a societal level. I have no doubt that believers will sometimes find this offensive because to many, it's important that others accept their belief as truth e.g. transwomen who identify in to women's sports or into running women's rape crisis centres.

By contrast, celebrities like Tennant get angry when others won't accept the belief being pushed on them.

I would feel exactly the same about any other belief being upheld in law. Yes "gender critical belief" is a phrase that's used to describe someone who recognises that there are two sexes and that there are times when this is important in law. However, this is similar to how "globe earth belief" might be described. IMO it's far better to think of it all as a lack of belief when thinking about beliefs that are in conflict with what can be proven by science. I don't describe my atheism as a belief in the big bang, I describe it as a lack of belief in creationism.

Forstater also won the lawful right to not believe that we all have a gender identity in the appeal judgement. Therefore, it's lawful to push back on it being implemented as a truth in laws, education and healthcare.

So JKR should be allowed to share her views, sometimes in pretty offensive ways, because they align with yours?

But any celebs who are not GC should shut up?

Right….

Of course.

Some celebrities genuinely hold a belief that everyone has a gender identity and that it's possible for this to be misaligned with someone's sex.

That's fine.

The disappointing part is when they openly support this belief being pushed on to others or virtue signal their belief in a way that is clearly an act of "look at me, I'm more intelligent than you".... or worse, do a Tennant and declare that anyone who doesn't want this belief pushed on to them is a "little whingeing fucker".

Could it possibly be that celebs don’t speak up with GC views because they don’t hold them?!

Putting this on my list too. Thank you for the recommendation.

I would also like to read his (children's) book My Brother's Name is Jessica, which he wrote in his TRA/Be Kind days. I'll probably read that one first, then the Echo Chamber. It would be interesting to see the difference in how he shapes both his characters and his sentences. In fact that feels like a "book club" thread in its own right, where the "assignment" is to read both books, then discuss this.

The Echo Chamber by John Boyne is another good book on identity politics and cancel culture. It's very funny too.

Never been a Tennant fan so I can't say I had any expectations of him. I do understand that he's got a confused kid who believes they're the opposite sex, or NB perhaps, and a wife who is full on TRA.
I'm guessing his hostility is partly because he feels his child will have an awful life if he does not fiercely defend them against the big bad world. This implies to me that he knows it's all bullshit and that they will, indeed, at some point not have an easy ride. All parents want to protect their kids. Tennant's problem is that the enemy is already inside his own home. He's focused on the people outside.
I also guess that his hostility to those who disagree that his kid is the opposite sex is at least in part to preserve his testicles from his TRA wife's teeth.

It's not just her age (I am not much younger and def have interalised misogyny) but that her contracts would dry up if she offended the trans ideologists. Germaine Greer could afford to offend, she is at the end of her life and has the money to pay for her care. JKRowling is so rich it doesn't matter if contracts are cancelled - and she turns out to be uncancellable. But for many others speaking up would mean huge loss of income, speaking dates, contracts, like Glinner etc. I understand where Atwood is. I don't understand David Tennant - but then he always was a bit antsy - except that he actually believes this guff.

Who makes up David Tennant's fanbase? Overwhelmingly women. He obviously hasn't thought about whether open misogyny is a good career move.

That's such a good point. I refuse to seek out any of his work anymore.

To add: this quote from The Other Eden (my bold)....

‘They don’t put men in women’s prisons, not even transvestites.’'

... shows the limit of his understanding back then. These two words demonstrate that Elton thinks transvestites would probably have a good argument to be there but aren't. And it also shows both how much and how little people knew about the difference between the two Blanchard classifications of transwomen back then (and still now). Even though the word transvestite is no longer "PC" the ignorance of the difference in motivation between the two Blanchard classifications is just as strong now as it was then. I'm assuming Elton would probably say "I'm proud that I used that word, even if it's no longer politically correct" and think this was him being both edgy and informed.

Edited to add that last sentence.

I'm not so much disappointed with WHAT certain celebs say (lets face it, it doesn't take much genuine courage to be a comedian or tv presenter and going along with the trendy narrative means they may get more work) but more HOW they say it. The David Tennant full frontal "they're just a bunch of moaning rat faced wee FUCKERS" type rants are displaying a level of contempt that it's hard to forget.

You just reminded me of Janeane Garofalo. She was once going to be the next big thing, until she wasn't.

I remember an interview - this is when movie magazines did looooong interviews - where she ventured into politics. I don't think anyone would have been surprised by her being a liberal. The trouble was that the interview was full of regular outbursts about all the groups in society she hated, and these were not small groups - men, white people, Republicans, Christians, people who live in the Midwest - so by the end she'd expressed contempt for about 85% of the population.

I'm not saying that interview is to blame, but you don't really see her acting any more. She seems to mostly appear as a talking head on political shows.

Bruce Springsteen doesn't do that. If you know more than a few US Republicans, you know that loads of them are huge Springsteen fans. They know he's left wing and they don't care. He can state his position without expressing contempt for half of his audience.

Who makes up David Tennant's fanbase? Overwhelmingly women. He obviously hasn't thought about whether open misogyny is a good career move.

Some great comments in multiple posts above. Too many to pull out and quote.

So I'll just settle with thanking @Thelnebriati for that incredible sleuthing to track down that paragraph.. in a different book from where you thought it was. And yep, I've read that one too... so my obliviousnous from my previous comment still applies.

Also I'm now angry at Tennant again for his awful rant. 🤬 My own fault really, as I think (happy to find out I'm wrong and apologise) I was the first person to mention his name in the thread.

I understand when women don't say anything. The abuse has been horrific.

I don't understand when they openly support it, though. I'm a big women's football fan and fuck me, some of the players/journos are so much dumber than I thought they were. You welcome men into women's sport? Say goodbye to your career then, you complete moron. I've had to unfollow so many.

The BBC had a lesbian twitter commentator pop up briefly on the Chelsea-Villa game last night and I CRINGED so hard when they introduced her. She's a notorious trans fanatic. Hello cognitive dissonance? How do you even function?

Yes to all this.

It's a very incestuous and small community at heart - everyone knows everyone at least second-hand, gossip spreads easily, and cliques form.

It's also worth emphasising that the jobs media people get are usually contractual, temporary and freelance, so if your political views start to loudly diverge from your pleasanter, apolitical North London chums, job offers will inevitably dry up. Everyone is chasing their next gig; in these circles, it takes a lot of money and a lack of vanity to have a backbone. Unless you're a big name (read: "does well in America"), production does not want the headache of working with anyone too difficult or controversial, so your career is dead if you're a woman or temporarily stalled if you're a man.

Essentially, the set-up of the media encourages and promotes nicey-nice arselickers, and that is why people don't speak up.

I get disappointed about writers or comedians because they're supposed to have some thinking skills. But often they don't care to think.

Actors not so much, because my fixed view of actors is that their careers are based on them being good looking and charismatic, but often they're not very bright. I like Malcolm Clark's theory that they take up causes as some kind of compensation for spending most of their lives reading other people's lines.

I can't find the quote, but I remember reading something about the politics of Hollywood and a Democratic operative was complaining that it was better in the old days when you just had a few activist actors like Susan Sarandon or Warren Beatty who really knew their causes. Now every idiot in the movies is constantly sounding off on Twitter and being taken seriously.

I feel sorry for these trans-identified kids who function as purse puppies for their famous parents. God knows what they'll think about it when they're older.

I'm not so much disappointed with WHAT certain celebs say (lets face it, it doesn't take much genuine courage to be a comedian or tv presenter and going along with the trendy narrative means they may get more work) but more HOW they say it. The David Tennant full frontal "they're just a bunch of moaning rat faced wee FUCKERS" type rants are displaying a level of contempt that it's hard to forget.

Someone else toeing the line using "she" for Mr Eddie Izzard is just someone toeing the line. It doesn't say much about them beyond they're more interested in their pay cheques than anything else, and frankly I don't always blame them. It's crap for anyone brave enough to step out and march to their own drum.

The cheerleaders and "wee fuckers" ranters are extremists and absolutely give me the willies.

Silence is complicity I suppose, but what's the phrase? Something about not saying anything means people think you're a fool, but saying something means people KNOW you're a fool?

There are a lot of proven fools out there, and a lot where we suspect they're keeping quiet to save their skins. I'm not sure if I feel much less contempt for the quiet ones than the "wee fuckers" ranters, but I suspect they hope we'll forget, eventually.

I'd not be so sure of that if I were them.

Billy Bragg was a huge disappointment. Not only his views on gender but the awful sneering way he speaks to women on Twitter. Stewart Lee is another one who has no idea what he's talking about on gender but doesn't let that stop him lecturing women.

I was disappointed Marian Keyes said nothing when JK Rowling was getting death and rape threats. I'd loved Marian’s books and I’d seen her supporting other women writers and feminist causes. I really thought she’d be willing to say, at the very least, that threats of violence are wrong. She didn't though and when I saw her husband liking articles in the Irish media about awful, bigoted terfs, it seemed obvious why.

I haven't felt the same about her since.

Found it in This Other Eden;

''The little Garda convoy eventually pulled up in the courtyard of Dublin’s Central Police Station. Max was removed first.
‘Rosalie, I’ll —‘ he started to say.
‘I wish I’d never met you at all,’ she said, her eyes no longer fierce and strong, but liquid with sadness. ‘And I never want to see you again.’
‘You won’t, love,’ the Inspector assured her. ‘They don’t put men in women’s prisons, not even transvestites.’'

Either it's thinking he's already got to a sensible position, or he's afraid of following his doubts to their conclusion.

This nails it.

I think it also applies to Margaret Atwood. Possibly also Sandy Toksvig and a few more.

There are plenty more for whom the first part applies but not the second. My assumption being that they aren't afraid but are content enough at the outcome of their own self-gaslighting and can comfortably hold (and sometimes vocally defend) their cognitive dissonance. I'd put Kirstie Allsop in this group.

The final group is the Never Even Going to Get Near To Getting It gang. Billy Bragg is firmly entrenched in this group. As are celebrities with children who have declared a gender identity that differs from their sex (including younger children, where the parents have effectively made this announcement for them).... soooooo many names to choose from here. Hello Mr Tennant 👏