Page 4 | Labour is betraying women

IwantToRetire · 2024-09-17T23:41:22+00:00

^. . . If Starmer’s government has achieved so much depressing stuff in 71 days, roughly 4 per cent of the way into a possible 5-year term, what they might achieve by the end of it fills me with dread. I believe that Labour showed us, and in some instances told us, what they would do, or not do, to ensure the continued erosion of women’s rights, and they are doing exactly what they said. Why some feminist women, seemingly in a blind bond to Labour, didn’t believe them escapes me. It also infuriates me that they think Labour deserve a bit more rope to hang us with. ^ ^Some prominent left-wing women, before the election, pleaded with us to trust Labour and allow them space to make the right decisions. They suggested that it was wrong to focus on the single issue of gender ideology, because women would benefit in so many other ways under a Labour government. ^ ^I wonder, did they envisage this Labour government? The one maintaining unequal benefits, placing violent men amongst their female victims and keeping the blurred line between gender and sex embedded in law? I can understand if those women were now as dismayed as the rest of us at what they are seeing, but instead they appear to be spinning for Labour, suggesting the violent men aren’t really being released or excusing it by blaming the Tories. They suggest we should wait and see what happens, keep the faith, trust the process. After many years of being told that women are influencing Labour “behind the scenes” my faith in that has gone. ^ ^If you are a feminist woman openly critical of Labour you may now be accused of “right wing drift”. This is nonsense. Instead, should scrutiny not be focused on how far Labour have drifted from the left? This is where condemnation should be aimed. . . .^ NB - these are only some paragraphs from the article - you can read the whole article here - [[https://thecritic.co.uk/labour-is-betraying-women https://thecritic.co.uk/labour-is-betraying-women/]]

TempestTost · 26/09/2024 00:02

I don't think the argument that the problem is the government didn't build enough houses washes with people. People don't always have highly developed ideas about these issues, but they have a sense of what's going on that is informed by what they see around them.

It might be true they should have built more housing, but it' s pretty irrelevant if you can't find housing now and are seeing new arrivals housed. Most people in this situation will feel that regardless of historic blame around home building there should not be more people admitted when there are not enough homes or other infrastructure for those who already live there.

Then, the question is how many is enough? England has an extremely high population density and many people are suspicious of the idea that it needs to be greater, or should be greater.

StainlessSteelMouse · 25/09/2024 18:19

The thing about immigration is that it's one of those issues with a long tail. So crises in the system now are often the unforeseen consequences of decisions made many years ago.

It means you have to think about the long term, which politicians are notoriously bad at.

Another long term issue is the birth rate being below replacement level, while most women say they would like more children than they actually have. Is there anyone out there with the imagination to think of long term initiatives to support mothers, bearing in mind the so-called gender pay gap is really mostly a maternity pay gap?

What are we going to do about the lack of skills in the workforce, which hasn't been addressed by the push to get every kid into university? Any long term ideas for that?

And of course, how do we support an ageing population?

It's not as if we don't know about the big demographic pressures. But our rulers seem incapable of thinking about them. Instead they ramp up immigration, while lying about doing it, and come up with dumb policies like the two child benefit cap that don't balance the public finances but allow ministers to seem "tough" for the benefit of the headlines.

The Conservatives failed on all these points, and Labour look well set to fail harder. And then they wonder why Reform are rising in the polls.

duc748 · 25/09/2024 18:16

I think many, many people in the UK believe that Britain takes the most refugees (more than Germany!), and that the EU is only too happy to see them head in boats for our shores.

EasternStandard · 25/09/2024 18:13

IwantToRetire · 25/09/2024 18:08

It's hard to know what you are both advocating

I'm not advocating anything.

I am being really boring and practical.

At the moment the UK has quite a long list of areas of work that will allow people who want to do that work to come to the UK.

In this case the info is (surely?) easily accessible and so every month or whatever, these figures can be published. And in most instances these are jobs that are not taken up by UK citizens (hence talk by labour about upskilling our current work force)

And if in publishing it there was the a huge number of UK citizens saying but I wanted to do that job but they aren't paying the going rate then it is part of uk policy that migrant workers are not used to undercut the "going rate".

And maybe employers would have to show they had properly advertised vacancies etc..

Asylum seekers is something that the UK should be helping with other countries to do their / our fair share. I think there are easier to read stats than this link but no time to dig them out. https://www.economicsobservatory.com/asylum-seekers-in-europe-where-do-people-go-and-why

You have to wonder who it is in the UK that has this vested interest in creating this impression that we are being invaded compared to other countries. And hate to say it but one reason is that for the media it is the photo op of people in boats approaching Dover. If the UK had got off its backside and created processing centres in any number of countries eg Greece often the first europen country asylum seekers reach, there would be not need for mad and dangerous crossings of the Channel on inflatables.

The far bigger question of why so many people are seeking asylum is so huge, ie has so many aspects, that I am not sure whether any country, group of countries, can answer.

ie war, invasion, civil and political conflict, climate change, famine, hard line regimes, being a persecuted minority, former colonial exploitation of a countries resources, current exploitation of a countries resources to feed a greedy western consumer society, and ....

So it isn't about what I want, other than I want people to talk about the reality.

Not shit stir and victim blame.

Not forgetting the shame of the Windrush Generation who were asked to come and help the UK recover from WWII and then failure to preserve records and a "hostile" environment led to people who came at that time, or children of these people, were forcible deported to countries they had nothing to do with.

Edited

I don't mind realistic discussion about what to do as climate pressures increase but I don't think processing in another country will be viable as you won't be able to meet the demand.

And if you can't say yes to everyone who applies and is eligible, and it will be very high, then people will seek other ways. Which would still be allowable within international law. You'd also create such large movement to those processing centres it would be overwhelming.

It's not just this country btw, if you look at Germany and other EU nations. They don't have boats as images. The pressure is increasing and you will see the electorate react until politicians take it seriously somehow.

Original poster

IwantToRetire · 25/09/2024 18:08

It's hard to know what you are both advocating

I'm not advocating anything.

I am being really boring and practical.

At the moment the UK has quite a long list of areas of work that will allow people who want to do that work to come to the UK.

In this case the info is (surely?) easily accessible and so every month or whatever, these figures can be published. And in most instances these are jobs that are not taken up by UK citizens (hence talk by labour about upskilling our current work force)

And if in publishing it there was the a huge number of UK citizens saying but I wanted to do that job but they aren't paying the going rate then it is part of uk policy that migrant workers are not used to undercut the "going rate".

And maybe employers would have to show they had properly advertised vacancies etc..

Asylum seekers is something that the UK should be helping with other countries to do their / our fair share. I think there are easier to read stats than this link but no time to dig them out. https://www.economicsobservatory.com/asylum-seekers-in-europe-where-do-people-go-and-why

You have to wonder who it is in the UK that has this vested interest in creating this impression that we are being invaded compared to other countries. And hate to say it but one reason is that for the media it is the photo op of people in boats approaching Dover. If the UK had got off its backside and created processing centres in any number of countries eg Greece often the first europen country asylum seekers reach, there would be not need for mad and dangerous crossings of the Channel on inflatables.

The far bigger question of why so many people are seeking asylum is so huge, ie has so many aspects, that I am not sure whether any country, group of countries, can answer.

ie war, invasion, civil and political conflict, climate change, famine, hard line regimes, being a persecuted minority, former colonial exploitation of a countries resources, current exploitation of a countries resources to feed a greedy western consumer society, and ....

So it isn't about what I want, other than I want people to talk about the reality.

Not shit stir and victim blame.

Not forgetting the shame of the Windrush Generation who were asked to come and help the UK recover from WWII and then failure to preserve records and a "hostile" environment led to people who came at that time, or children of these people, were forcible deported to countries they had nothing to do with.

OP posts:

borntobequiet · 25/09/2024 17:50

Sanyagupt · 25/09/2024 03:06

Let’s be honest. Most of us voted Tory or reform on here. Hopefully Labour will last max 5 years. And then order will resume. Like most are saying, Labour didn’t win, the Tories just lost and if Sunak had waited til now, the election would’ve been in the bag for them.

Really?

I don’t think so.

EasternStandard · 25/09/2024 17:45

I take it you're not arguing for no controls? or..

It's hard to know what you are both advocating

Original poster

IwantToRetire · 25/09/2024 17:44

Polls show people can separate types of migration and feel policies can differ to the benefit of the country

And both the media and politicians could be much more honest about the number of immigrants are here because we, the UK, want and need them.

And it would also help if the UK had set up a proper process for asylum seekeers.

If these had been put in place, or Labour promised to put them in place, it would be far easier to talk without negativity about giving asylum. Not forgetting the UK has one of the lowest levels of giving asylum.

Unfortunately the media, and politicians playing up to the media, talk in half truths.

And just to be positive for once, it was really noticeable that without any top down directive, how many communities organised themselves to offer help and practical support.

OP posts:

duc748 · 25/09/2024 17:42

Yes, but it's easy to say, we want the 'good' immigrants, and not the 'bad' ones.

EasternStandard · 25/09/2024 17:38

duc748 · 25/09/2024 17:35

This country would grind to a halt without immigration.

People don't want to hear that, though.

Polls show people can separate types of migration and feel policies can differ to the benefit of the country

It doesn't have to be just stop it all

Original poster

IwantToRetire · 25/09/2024 17:36

Comment on Starmer's conference speech which was said as much in sadness as for laughs:

"It's as though Starmer still has Corbyn living in his head."

And once I heard that the speech made sense. It almost didn't matter what the issue was so long as it couldn't in any way be said to be Corbynite.

One of his, the LP's, current sales pitch is we will change the country like we changed the Labour Party.

The Labour Party who curtials member's rights.

The Labour Party that has been captured by a small group funded by a millionaire, to make it non left.

The Labour Party that weaponises issues such as Zionism and women's sex based rights to get rid of members they dont like.

If it wasn't so serious, you would have to laugh as such a bunch of air brushed focus group parrots who cant even work out how to make cuts that will make some people poorer than the people they say they want to help. They aren't even logical.

But then living in a very "woke" Labour borough has really made me appreciate that fine sounding words are great but if you cant even organise a piss up in a brewery, you shouldn't be standing for public office where your incometence ruins people's lives.

They really haven't matured beyond the soap box politics of first year students.

OP posts:

duc748 · 25/09/2024 17:35

This country would grind to a halt without immigration.

People don't want to hear that, though.

Original poster

IwantToRetire · 25/09/2024 17:27

The issue of immigration as being the cause people dont have decent housing, etc., is a total myth.

What is so extraordinary that so many people in the UK, across classes, blame immigration rather than the failure of Government to plan and provide for the inhabitants on the British Isle.

Thatcher thought right to buy, privitising of utilities etc., basically asset stripped the country.

Not only did it impact the level of service but means much of the cost to us as consumers goes to shareholders, many of whom at not British citizins.

It amazes me that in 21st century so many people still seem unable to believe that the ruling class (irrespective of party politics) is treating us like subservients serfs (in the original meaning of the word).

And it seems some sort of ingrained forelock tugging attitudes persists as though we have a benign country genrty where the people in the big house look after us if we just know our place.

Have any government reverses the right to buy and invested in building social housing, there wouldn't be a problem.

Not forgetting that the increase in legal immigration is because the UK doesn't have enough people to do all the essential jobs, whether in the NHS or the shit work that most dont want to do.

And as discussed on another thread, as a country we aren't having enough babies to provide the work force we will need in future years.

This country would grind to a halt without immigration.

OP posts:

Original poster

IwantToRetire · 25/09/2024 17:17

If I was able to take the comment about us all being tories or whatever nonsense seriously, I would be quite insulted!

As someone who is aware I have commented quite a lot on this thread, in most instances I would have thought it was clear I was saying Labour isn't left enough.

So on one level shouldn't let a derail attempt prompt me into a response.

It just to stop us talking about actual issues.

But just to finish of this comedy section, I grew up in a fairly middle of the road conservative (with a small c) family, who were not party political.

And what I am now so aware of is that the country as a whole, and the Labour Party have moved so far right, that the sort of things that my parent used to say would mean that today they would be taken for being on the left.

For those who lived through WWII and then experienced the start of the national health service, the actual (and very effective) homes for heroes programme, free evening adult education, and so on, didn't support this as a "left" programme but unlike Starmer's sad attempt in his conference speach, but because it felt like it was part of what they had been fighting for.

And of course many of these public services are ones that other European countries who traditionally were seen as being more right wing than the UK, had and still have these aspirations in practice.

OP posts:

Sanyagupt · 25/09/2024 11:39

Pluvia · 25/09/2024 09:28

I rejoined the Labour Party a couple of years ago, after resigning when they chucked people out for signing Labour Women's Declaration. I'm actively involved in my CLP while also sceptical about certain aspects of the party. I decided to be pro-active and try to have some influence rather than whinging from outside. I've canvassed in the last three elections in both middle class and impoverished working class areas of the constituency — and Labour's refusal to commit to clamping down on immigration has come up time and time again. I lost count in July of the number of people on the book (known Labour voters whom we canvass) who said sorry, given up on Labour, going to vote Reform. Some said they would have voted Tory if they thought there were any coherent policies, but after the shitshow of Johnson and Truss they were going straight to Reform. I can see how hard it is for people who are struggling, or who work with people in need, to see refugees being given council housing and other opportunities denied to local citizens. I don't know what we do about immigration, but I really don't think stigmatising working class people who don't want an open door immigration policy (which is supported by many Labour activists I encounter) is the place to start.

Show quote history

I’m as working class as they come, tend to vote labour, and live in a town massively affected by immigration of poorly educated unskilled people who let’s be honest are a drain on our cash strapped council. Part of that is due to the huge north south divide in accommodation and living costs which wasn’t solved by the Tories after 14 years (and tbh a majority of time in government over the last century). And the uncontrolled immigration from the rest of the world happened with Tory Brexit. So why voters should think LP are pro open door immigration when the evidence in reality is very different. The tories may have bigged themselves up as opposed to it but their actions speak louder than words.

Floisme · 25/09/2024 11:14

Ah the good old 'You sound like a Tory' argument. To be fair, it can still be effective - it kept me in line for the best part of 50 years.

EasternStandard · 25/09/2024 11:02

StainlessSteelMouse · 25/09/2024 10:59

I agree with not stigmatising voters, which is an unfortunate habit for the modern left. I don't think it's just immigration - there are lots of issues where the political class is either out of touch or incapable of doing very much - but immigration is the big lightning rod.

I actually think it would be possible to put an argument for a liberal immigration policy and win it. But neither main party has been willing to do that. The Tories talked restrictionist for years and did the opposite in office. In particular Boris Johnson talked about having high wage, high skilled immigration - what I think would be a sensible approach - and then presided over a huge amount of unskilled immigration to drive the Deliveroo economy.

Labour prefer to not say anything, because lots of party members are open borders fetishists and most Labour voters definitely aren't.

So what we come back to is, if the parties made an argument at an election which they then won, and did that, even the people who didn't like the policy would feel it had democratic legitimacy. If the parties say one thing before an election and do the opposite afterwards, the voters feel like they're being lied to.

As for immigration, so for other issues. I think a lot of problems would be mitigated if politicians would just talk to us like adults.

Politicians are stuck with older language and themes on immigration and cannot square the 1951 convention with the fast rising trafficking and climate pressures

You see it with the ex politicians coming out and relying on old lines but they will fail over time as people start reacting more

You can see suppression, or stuff like Germany and EU but eventually western politicians will need to find a way to listen to the electorate

Separating out the types of immigration of course, as they have different responses

StainlessSteelMouse · 25/09/2024 10:59

I agree with not stigmatising voters, which is an unfortunate habit for the modern left. I don't think it's just immigration - there are lots of issues where the political class is either out of touch or incapable of doing very much - but immigration is the big lightning rod.

I actually think it would be possible to put an argument for a liberal immigration policy and win it. But neither main party has been willing to do that. The Tories talked restrictionist for years and did the opposite in office. In particular Boris Johnson talked about having high wage, high skilled immigration - what I think would be a sensible approach - and then presided over a huge amount of unskilled immigration to drive the Deliveroo economy.

Labour prefer to not say anything, because lots of party members are open borders fetishists and most Labour voters definitely aren't.

So what we come back to is, if the parties made an argument at an election which they then won, and did that, even the people who didn't like the policy would feel it had democratic legitimacy. If the parties say one thing before an election and do the opposite afterwards, the voters feel like they're being lied to.

As for immigration, so for other issues. I think a lot of problems would be mitigated if politicians would just talk to us like adults.

Pluvia · 25/09/2024 09:28

Sanyagupt · 25/09/2024 08:08

Well sorry but to read the full thread (which I have done) most sound like a load of disgruntled salty Tory voters. If you gave the Tories 14 years to fuck things up, maybe do that with the current shower. And let’s be honest, Labour aren’t driving the electorate towards Farage and Reform. It was the shocking genuine billion pounds lost in corruption and general economic mismanagement by the actual traditional ‘party of government’ that did that. Oh and maybe the actual electorate should take some responsibility for that if it happened.

Edited

I rejoined the Labour Party a couple of years ago, after resigning when they chucked people out for signing Labour Women's Declaration. I'm actively involved in my CLP while also sceptical about certain aspects of the party. I decided to be pro-active and try to have some influence rather than whinging from outside. I've canvassed in the last three elections in both middle class and impoverished working class areas of the constituency — and Labour's refusal to commit to clamping down on immigration has come up time and time again. I lost count in July of the number of people on the book (known Labour voters whom we canvass) who said sorry, given up on Labour, going to vote Reform. Some said they would have voted Tory if they thought there were any coherent policies, but after the shitshow of Johnson and Truss they were going straight to Reform. I can see how hard it is for people who are struggling, or who work with people in need, to see refugees being given council housing and other opportunities denied to local citizens. I don't know what we do about immigration, but I really don't think stigmatising working class people who don't want an open door immigration policy (which is supported by many Labour activists I encounter) is the place to start.

Janie143 · 25/09/2024 09:11

I was born in 1960. I remember news stories every winter about old people dying of hypothermia. I cannot beleive we are going back to that. I agree that well off pensioners should not get WFA but where the line has been drawn is abhorrent. It could easily have been drawn using HMRC info. by identiying pensioners with high savings or income tax etc. I

EasternStandard · 25/09/2024 09:08

Sanyagupt · 25/09/2024 03:06

Let’s be honest. Most of us voted Tory or reform on here. Hopefully Labour will last max 5 years. And then order will resume. Like most are saying, Labour didn’t win, the Tories just lost and if Sunak had waited til now, the election would’ve been in the bag for them.

I'm not sure about it being the bag if they had waited. Why do you say that?

I think Labour have taken a hit wrt public opinion though in the first few months.

EasternStandard · 25/09/2024 09:06

Pluvia · 25/09/2024 08:43

See, you dodged the question again. Why are you blaming Labour for the crisis in public sector pay and pension costs?

Show quote history

Oh my, this again.

The public sector v cutting WFA was a political choice. And I doubt the markets would have reacted to WFA issue at all, in fact a Labour MP sounded mad in one interview over this.

That's it.You'll have to drop it as I'm not saying anything outside the above. Your question on blame isn't relevant as you've created that part.

Pluvia · 25/09/2024 08:43

EasternStandard · 24/09/2024 16:11

I referred to the public sector pay rises as that is what has given us the highest debt since the 1960s, it wasn't for infrastructure

I also pointed out that increasing pay was a political choice against removing the WFA

If you think Reeves had to be harsh for the markets it didn't actually have to be the WFA, that was the political part. It could have been in the region of public sector pay rises instead.

Show quote history

See, you dodged the question again. Why are you blaming Labour for the crisis in public sector pay and pension costs?

Snowypeaks · 25/09/2024 08:11

Sanyagupt · 25/09/2024 03:06

Let’s be honest. Most of us voted Tory or reform on here. Hopefully Labour will last max 5 years. And then order will resume. Like most are saying, Labour didn’t win, the Tories just lost and if Sunak had waited til now, the election would’ve been in the bag for them.

Speak for yourself! I didn't vote Tory, Reform or Labour.

Sanyagupt · 25/09/2024 08:08

Well sorry but to read the full thread (which I have done) most sound like a load of disgruntled salty Tory voters. If you gave the Tories 14 years to fuck things up, maybe do that with the current shower. And let’s be honest, Labour aren’t driving the electorate towards Farage and Reform. It was the shocking genuine billion pounds lost in corruption and general economic mismanagement by the actual traditional ‘party of government’ that did that. Oh and maybe the actual electorate should take some responsibility for that if it happened.