Labour is betraying women

Lots of huge petitions calling for referendums and general elections have been made in the last 8 years. Here are some:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42308552

The Tories ignored them, so will Labour. Of course the opposition wants an election it is is an odd topic for a debate though at this point. There was an election 4 months ago. There are local elections in May. The next general election will be 2028/9 unless lots of Labour MPs decide to undermine the government.

Way more effective to use the petition system to get debates on topics the government wants to avoid talking about.

On a semi-sarcastic note, Starmer seems keen to promote state control of thoughts and speech that he disapproves of so maybe he has some things he can chat to Xi about - China’s authoritarian social credit system might give some of our politicians inspiration 😏

Not least because not completely burning your bridges with one superpower leaves you left open to being completely vulnerable to anything another superpower demands. Personally I would rather see the UK work more closely with the EU (not rejoin, we had a vote sigh) but to at least find areas of cooperation in border security. defense, trade because quite difficult times are approaching and its better for the UK and the EU to work toegether.

Completely agree that the uk works more closely with the EU. Working closely with China is tricky because the state is highly strategic in negotiating its FD ‘investment’ and the UK has a new govt that may inadvertently focus on investment to the detriment of our security.

Well... the UK left the EU. America (or rather the Trump administration) has made it very clear that it doesn't consider any treaties made that don't benefit America to be worth following. Doing a flounce because someone has the wrong politics (Trump/America) is foolish - but the "America First" doctrine does make it likely that existing agreements won't count for much but also that any new agreements won't necessarily be kept. And there is a very strong chance of being caught in a tarrif war between the US and China which could hurt the UK much more than it hurts either of them. With that in mind, it doesn't hurt to keep as many options on the table as possible. Not least because not completely burning your bridges with one superpower leaves you left open to being completely vulnerable to anything another superpower demands. Personally I would rather see the UK work more closely with the EU (not rejoin, we had a vote sigh) but to at least find areas of cooperation in border security. defense, trade because quite difficult times are approaching and its better for the UK and the EU to work toegether. But its always better to negotiate deals when you have other options on the table. And its always better anyway to keep lines of comminication open with opponents like China. Biden for all his faults had the right line on this (cordial with China but also successfully persuaded the Netherlands to stop selling them chip making machines and to open chip making machine factories in the US. Smart geopolitical maneuvering).

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/nov/17/starmer-aims-to-build-pragmatic-and-serious-relationship-in-meeting-with-xi-at-g20

Presumably this man is not naive but getting closer to Xi Ping at this juncture seems wilfully naive. Or deeply cynical in exchanging Britain’s security for a few shekels?

I'm actually one of those loons who joined the Labour party when JC was elected leader. Not because I thought he'd make a good PM (and I disagreed with him about plenty), but because the other candidates were all so rubbish, and he hopefully beckoned a welcome start in the right general direction. But of course it didn't turn out like that, and Starmer shafted him. "Well, Sir Keir, when did first discover that Jeremy Corbyn was a terrible antisemite? Was it the day before yesterday, or years ago?"

I can't imagine a majority of MNers voted Tory, and even less so, the regular posters in this folder.

lndeed we did not. I voted for no-one as it happens, but I would not vote Reform and only voted Tory over Brexit (holding my nose).

And also, @IwantToRetire , it's good to remember that whatever is suggested these days, Labour under Corbyn hardly had a 'hard-left' policy at all. Mostly just nationalisation of utilities, which had public support anyway. They failed because the GBP didn't see Corbyn as PM. Starmer had plenty of time in opposition to grow a pair. No sign so far.

No "we" didn't.

Speak for yourself.

I suspect a lot of this goes with the job having become a 'professional politician' career rather than someone with a passion for reform or representation. The main focus is a nice career, nice income, nice perks, nice bit of tinkering and playing about with your hobby horses, and bugger off to a nice retirement all insulated from the absolute disasters you've inflicted on the plebs.

Reform are wankers.

A lot of the very real issues people are dealing with go back to Austerity - just the scrapping of so many things that might not seem much in themselves but had a cumulative effect, or that were the difference between life being difficult but manageable and everything falling apart. Or just made life better. So you saw an increase in homelessness, overwhelming of MH services, free activities for children closing, libraries less accessible etc. Austerity was justified by the fact there was "no money left". There was no money left because so much had been spent bailing out the banks who had been recklessly overspending.

The Nigel Farage, the complete banker, used the (justified) dissatisfaction and alienation people felt to channel support for Brexit. Brexit happened, things did not improve. Also, we then had "small boats" crossing over the channel due to the fact we no longer had any joint agreement with France etc - because of Brexit.

Nigel Farage used this to build support for reform. Reform MPs got elected including one who was a former banker for the Lehman Brothers of all things back before the crash.

Him and his friends are experts at helping to cause problems, using those problems to promote themselves, and then using this to cause more problems. All the while pocketing the cash and acting like victims.

My own level of disillusionment with all political parties is off the scale. Major changes happen with no explanation or discussion or public mandate. Politicians sell their souls to trendy ideas without examining the reality of what is being claimed, or the consequences of their actions. The try to convince that we can have our cake and eat it.

I can 100% see why people vote for Reform. I would never do so, I don't like demagogues for al sorts of reasons, but I totally understand the urge to stick one to the established parties.

All it would take is someone to stand up and say "You have nothing to lose but your Washington Generals jerseys."

I think a lot of those kinds of votes come down to, what can we lose, given what the others do when we vote for them?

It's a bit of a fuck you vote.

If Reform got in and delivered though, even partially, it could go a little nuts.

That. ^^

Anyone with a personality, a plan, a bit of oomph and someone who will annoy the other parties for being PITA useless and out of touch twits?

They stand a good chance. Germany in 1922 voted similarly for much the same reasons.

This is true. However, given the overlap between votes for Reform and votes for Brexit, my suspicion is that the same people who felt disengaged, disenfranchised and ignored, and who voted for Brexit, took their disillusionment to Reform. If you treat people with scorn and contempt, you will get it back, and leave them open to the appeal of demagogues like Farage.

Although Labour also use three word slogans and they’re not really selling in much over too much gloom

To be fair, it's still not clear Reform is anything more than a protest vote for cynics who think hard problems should always have easy, three-word solutions ("Get Brexit Done!" "Contain The Virus!") and there will never be complexity, trade-offs, or unexpected consequences.

Meet the new boss...

Labour used to be hostile to the British Empire, but I suppose Changed Labour now sees the utility of us still owning these little pirate republics like the Cayman Islands.