Family annihilators are usually husbands and fathers, now they are sons.

Agreed about CAMHS, but I also wonder how much casual drug use, eg cannabis, has played into this situation. There's a documented link between cannabis use and poor mental health developing. Mix that with the toxic combination found in social media algorithms and I despair.

With the ongoing collapse of CAMHS, and the number of kids going for years without diagnosis/treatment, I'm concerned that this is going to be more of a trend.

More young people will kill themselves, and more young people will kill others.

Not to underplay the role of misogyny and the greater propensity towards male violence. But I think the failure of CAMHS is a big factor that will lead to more of these terrible events.

Yep, and they do data analysis at the end of each year too - I'm sure they id'd increased son to mother violence as a trend, and also grandson violence. Fucking horrifying.

In which case, I think we can safely assume that the majority of men because you know that if the majority or even half were women, then the report would state that.

I wonder whether narcissism and sociopathy are more associated with males as opposed to females or whether we even have that data.

This question led me to remember listening years ago to Prof Jim Fallon talk about his research studying brain imaging of murderers. He found evidence that psychopaths are people who lack emotional empathy, who don't feel love like other people, and who lie and manipulate as a matter of course. He didn’t specifically talk about the sex of those he studied. I’m thinking it’s largely men.

He also said that there is a biological basis for psychopathy, genetics, the brain patterns, and that early existence of trauma, but also that a real, primary psychopath doesn’t need any trauma. That "they’re just predators who don’t need to be angry at all; they do these things because of some fundamental lack of connection with the human race, and with individuals".

The Keyham shooter in Plymouth a couple of years ago, first shot his mum before killing others randomly. He was using incel websites.

@RoseHedgehog that's a really good summary. I understand entirely what you say.

I myself have been raised in a Narcissist/ sociopath family system. I'm not hurting or killing anyone anytime soon, that's for sure.

As you describe, there's a complex interplay of factors that lead to this it seems. I've spent a great deal of time researching all this based on my own experience and my concerns as a mum to a son. It's complicated. I became seriously unwell as an adult with multiple autoimmune conditions - yet my male sibling became another sociopath with abusive tendancies and no desire to take accountability. I realised that I had the capacity to be emotionally abusive on some level and after years of counselling I know I could never ever hurt a soul. I am empathic. I don't know why I didn't become a violent killer but sex and whatever goes on in being a male influences this significantly.

From what I read, each case is different like you say, but there's an interplay of nurture and nature. Men by nature just have a greater propensity for violence. Do they have a greater propensity for misogyny compared to women ( misandry), yes definitely. Then you might add in the environmental factors ( trauma, narc mother), some additional biology such as temperament ( difficult children are more susceptible to being turned into narcissists / sociopaths - which are primarily created as opposed to being born. )

You can also add the possible genetic nature factors such as Neurodivergence and or mental illness and add that to the propensity to misogyny and violence and it's a nightmare.

Maybe answered my own question. 🤷‍♀️

I wonder whether narcissism and sociopathy are more associated with males as opposed to females or whether we even have that data.

Any violence like this is predominantly affecting women and its definitely not "new".

However I think there at other factors at play such as massive cuts in community and statutory services for people struggling with mental health and addiction and its significantly harder for people to access mental health support now. Years of chronic underfunding is having a huge impact on the ability of people who are vulnerable in some ways to access services which can unfortunately also make them more volatile or unpredictable. When you then add in the fact that women are more likely to take on caretaking roles that also puts them directly in the firing line. So therefore to me it makes grim sense that we're seeing more and more of these types of cases because women are the ones picking up the slack.

I think this is most likely the crux of the matter, and has a couple of areas that need inspecting to figure out how to stop this:

1. how has this come about, that the child feels the mother is capable of causing the unsatisfactory life? Is it that they feel ill-equipped for success by the mother, unreasonably or otherwise? Or is it that they feel an unpleasant childhood or upbringing has been actively perpetrated on them by the mother? I imagine behind all this we have a range of scenarios all the way from an abusive mother, through inept mother, to unpleasant or unlikeable child, a child warped by the internet/echo chambers out to pure sociopathy in the child at the other end. This is tricky to break down as so much is going to be subjective - it's not like missing out on a summer holiday to Benidorm is an objective measure of an unsatisfactory childhood, for example
2. now assuming the child has somehow managed to form the idea that their life is unsatisfactory, significantly due to the mother, why does the child not simply leave the home context and succeed elsewhere? Why do they choose to move in ever closer and commit violence directly against the mother? We see direct, physical violence in these cases, not booby traps, not slow poisoning. Do we assume it is the man's natural response to physically remove a "threat" with violence, and therefore a man-only issue to be solved? Do we see the same attempts at physical violence from daughters against mothers? There's a lot of sex-based distinction around the value/cost of physical violence as a solution, which I think would be tricky to try and unpick into causative factors

Context: I suffered significant outcomes from an emotionally abusive mother, and even when I was trapped in my room with her in the doorway screaming at me, I never considered violence as the solution - I couldn't wait to leave the context (I'd given up on the word and concept of "home"), and did so the moment I could with a car and then permanently with a rental.

@IwantToRetire that is very grim.

I read through the report you linked. There's alot of reference to unauthorised school absence in the families referenced. Yet, it doesn't explain how that links to the child being abusive and therefore why it's referenced.

I appreciate I will open up criticism here; I have a strong sense that a high proportion of parents in this study are mothers and that the child they talk about who is abusive and missing school is Neurodivergent.

@Ellerby83 why do mums get blamed for everything. I'm imagining in these cases the sons are blaming their mum for everything wrong in their life.

The 'counting dead women' twitter feed has a shocking amount of women killed by sons. Often the mothers are elderly.

@newtlover yes that's a really scary thought. I've watched so many true crime programmes now to see how many of these situations are occurring. I'm also realising that alot of men are misogynist.

It's very hard to know what takes one from a misogynist dick to being capable of this.

I feel there's something wrong mentally when one has taken it to such a level of insanity that it will be so detrimental to their own well being ( e.g life in prison).

I wonder how many 'good men' are left under a regime where one is authorised to abuse, control and dominate women. ( Certain countries in the Middle East for example).

The dad could have egged the son on tbh, they could both be blaming the woman for breaking up the family.

https://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/national/queensland/callous-brutal-son-who-killed-parents-with-sledgehammer-gets-life-in-jail-20240312-p5fbqv.html

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-66337147.amp

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4n1z3e2wd9o.amp

https://www.stokesentinel.co.uk/news/stoke-on-trent-news/drugged-up-son-kills-demon-9296076

https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/son-admits-killing-bubbly-lovely-29269771

https://www.devonlive.com/news/devon-news/dawlish-mum-stabbed-death-mutilated-9282179

Bloody hell you're right OP, these are just a few of a seemingly endless list of them.

yes, I used to think like that but whilst abusive men are in the minority, its such a big minority that I don't think it can be ascribed to mental illness, especially if you see that kind of abuse as just a more extreme manifestation of the misogyny that is all around us day by day.

@newtlover yes possibly. In my mind, I'm thinking that anyone who has a mentality as you describe has something going on biologically ( if that's the right catch all term) to make them go ahead and disobey all the rules of society and our self control drive.

The level of hate and loss of control to take it to this level is just not typical or say ' normal' surely. 😬

I don't know why we have to conjure up a MH issue
I can imagine a very similar dynamic to partner family annihilation
son is abusive, fears losing control for whatever reason, or possibly fears being found out, exerts control in the most final way possible.

The father saying 'its not your fault' could simply mean he shares the son's world view and reasoning.

Yep, Probably find that the son had severe MH issues which were not being treated

I believe there is absolutely a diagnosis behind this, whatever that may be. Schizophrenia, psychopathy or sociopathy.

The situation is going to get worse I fear when I look at all this horrific online Red Pill Incel sympathising crap. It is off the scale and the comments section is scary