Gisele Pelicot, utterly floored by this

Maybe. But if the aggressive ones died, they presumably had less chance to pass on their aggressive genes to offspring, and so there were fewer aggressive baboons? Maybe its a mix.

I think there's a misunderstanding here.

The "it's just biology" argument posits that rates of sexual violence by males is innate and cannot be changed. It's inevitable.

The "it's cultural" argument posits that it's not determined by their biology, it's mostly cultural. And culture can change.

The baboon example shows for baboons it's cultural, it did change.

Pretty sure male human beings can change too.

Well it is biology isn't it? The aggressive ones died....

Its common enough for the name of this style of porn and sexual practice to have made it into the Collins dictionary.

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/bukovina

Porn is addictive with men needing more and more extreme versions to still get a hit. When your porn is misogynistic and violent, it gets more extreme by getting more violent.

Everything I've seen and read on the news this month indicates that men hate women end of.

But, what the fuck? Is that something that happens often? And men just - go and do it?

How?

@Silkinside

That is extremely disturbing 😳 how on earth do they come up with such horrible ideas?

What?
What fresh hell?

That’s it. I’m forming a vendetta style mob to Re-educate these guys in the spirit of the Baboons.

I put this on another thread about Giselle, but there is a style of porn where c a call is put out to ordinary men, not actors, to come and abuse a single woman in a warehouse. About 50 men at once will come and they will all abuse her, and they all ejaculate on her face. Just ordinary men in the locality all come to do this to her.

I read a transcript of a police interview of one man being prosecuted (police raided the warehouse and found video footage of the woman crying and saying she was scared and did not want to do it, so they were able to prosecute the men for rape), and he was shown footage of what he and the other men did and he started crying and saying he would kill any man who did that to his wife. But he still went and joined and mob of men to abuse that young woman. And then its put online. It started in Japan, this style, but has spread around the world. The case I am talking was in France.

So many men will abuse women if they have the opportunity and the thinnest of reasons to tell themselves its ok.

@IwantToRetire

Can only imagine how much her husband enjoyed helping to make out she was losing her mind

It's terrible that not only was he abusing her physically but also making her think she was going crazy. That's some level of gaslighting. I think he was also accompanying her to appointments. You wonder how he got all those strong sleeping pills. Maybe the GP/doctor was complicit in the whole thing.

I don't think so, and this is why, and I hope it gives us... hope?

There was a baboon troupe in Kenya which had the usual aggressive male behaviour for the species, aggression to other males as they fought for dominance and harassment of females. The dominant males all contracted disease and died altering the gender balance of the troupe. The culture changed from one of aggression to much less aggression and more grooming behaviours, and it stayed that way. The researchers came back to revisit the troupe 7 years later and found the culture still less aggressive with more grooming.

So if baboons can do it, I reckon humans can do it. Any man claiming "it's just our biology" can be responded to with "so you think baboons are better than human men?" because that's essentially what they're saying.

Our culture can change. We can go from the current unacceptably high rates of sexual violence and degradation of women and girls, to a much more peaceful and gentle society, if we do it consciously.

IMO we need VERY harsh minimum sentences for sexual violence, a massive focus on changing culture in police and judiciary to make sexual violence a top priority for successful convictions, and changing laws about consent. Rather than "did she say no?" the law needs to state consent must be proven so "did she say yes?".

https://www.upworthy.com/something-fascinating-happened-after-these-male-baboons-died-men-should-keep-this-in-mind

Sorry for the derail

I see us going backwards in the west, I think that VAWAG is worse today.

Yes there's a lot out there which might make us think that. E.g. when I think of porn and the effect it has on mens minds. Worse today than when though? A lot of what leads me to think it may be worse now is that it's getting reported more, and women have the means to discuss it freely (so we hear about it more). And that's actually one reason it's better now.

When I ask myself, would I rather be a woman alive now or fifty years ago, or a hundred or five hundred, I always land on 'now'.

But then you hear about a case like this, and of course this couldn't have happened without the internet and modern sleeping pills. I suppose in history this sort of thing will still have happened, he'd have just locked her up in a room and brought men in from the street. But it wouldn't have got discovered and broadcast around the world. And if it did get discovered she'd have been the one thrown in prison for some sort of moral crimes.

So yeah, I'll stick with 'it's better now' but better is a relative term, I'm not saying everything's fine and dandy, far from it.

She was told she was probably developing dementia due to her ‘memory problems’. You know the little sides effects of the medications she was given …

The effect wasn’t reported on initially. Which I find media should be intensely criticised for.
There is always terrible effects on the body and mind from abuse and sexual abuse, and I think this should be reported in a sensible way.

Remember the case from USA with that vile swimmer who raped an unconscious young woman. In the court case the focus was on how sad it was for him to face consequences fir what he did. The woman has spent a lot of time to turn that story into how horrible the consequences were for her. We have still a way to go on that.

We assume the society is progressing forever forward, but Afghanistan shows absolutely that for women it can go backwards, and fast.

I was born in 1970 when women in Afghanistan had comparative freedom. In my lifetime they have lost it all.

We have to fight HARD to retain our freedom.

I see us going backwards in the west, I think that VAWAG is worse today.

Caroline Darian (her daughter) recounted learning of the alleged abuse on 2 November 2020 from her mother after she had spoken to investigators.

“My life was literally turned upside down. My mother said: ‘I spent most of the day at the police station. Your father drugged me to rape me with strangers. I was made to look at the photos.’

“It was what you call a tipping point, the start of a slow descent into hell where you have no idea how low you will sink,” she said, breaking down into tears. I called my brothers … We didn’t know what was happening to us.”

Darian had left the room in tears on Tuesday less than 20 minutes into the second day of the trial, as the presiding judge recounted how naked photomontages of her had also been found on Dominique Pélicot’s computer in a folder titled “Around my daughter, naked”.

Darian in 2022 wrote a book called Et j’ai cessé de t’appeler papa (“And I stopped calling you dad”) about the effect the discovery of the crimes had on the family.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/sep/06/daughter-of-french-man-who-invited-men-to-rape-mother-speaks-of-descent-into-hell-dominique-pelicot-gisele-pelicot

The other aspect which I first I wasn't aware of, and is almost as shocking, is the impact this had on her physical and mental health.

I dont know why, maybe from when the story was first reported some time ago, it was as though she had no idea of any problems.

Now to know that during this time she was being coerced whilst conscious into believing she had mental health problems and was inexplicable physically ill.

Not sure how many years this was but imagine coping with this every day.

And of course nobody thought to look at what was going on in her home life.

Just the most repulsive doubling down on her exploitation. Can only imagine how much her husband enjoyed helping to make out she was losing her mind.

There is also some rumours that some of them are ‘well people’ in the area (aka your local maire, doctor etc….) but because they are so visible they can’t be touched.

I personally don’t believe that. But there is a long history in France of those trials then giving a ‘not guilty’ result.

They are ALL local, just a few miles from where they lived.
One of them was their NDN that she met and thought ‘he was a nice, polite person’

@IwantToRetire .. this article implies that at least some of the rapists were local.. https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cyvpd7zyprdo the women interviewed recognised some of the names.

It is shocking that the Mayor is seeking to minimise the crimes because being conscious, a child or killed would be worse.

Thank you everyone who has contributed to this discussion. It is very very hard to process such an insight into the horrors that lurk in the minds of men.

@IwantToRetire .. this article implies that at least some of the rapists were local.. https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cyvpd7zyprdo the women interviewed recognised some of the names.

It is shocking that the Mayor is seeking to minimise the crimes because being conscious, a child or killed would be worse.

Thank you everyone who has contributed to this discussion. It is very very hard to process such an insight into the horrors that lurk in the minds of men.

Wtf?

I remember reading that right after Russia invaded Ukraine, that site was inundated with search terms which included ‘Ukrainian woman’. I’ve never been able to get that out of my mind. We all know what can happen to women in the path of soldiers, but the knowledge of that just feeds the recreation time of some men, it seems.