Gisele Pelicot, utterly floored by this

fair points, and to other PP also

tbh it's bloody depressing the level of sexual violence worldwide

I just refuse to dismiss the baboon culture example

but I'm not going to bother trying to give any more examples of countries with relatively lower rates of sexual violence, as no one else has bothered to try and it's derailing the thread

which is about the disgusting levels of violence and how this particular case of Gisele Pelicot is affecting us all

An example of a country with relatively low levels of sexual violence would be Japan. This may be due to strict laws which are (relatively) more consistently enforced and cultural norms emphasising harmony and social order. Although, I do think the rates of sexual violence are changing and getting worse and I strongly suspect this may be driven by increasing violent online porn

I don't think Japan is a good example. They have only just ( June 24 I believe) increased the age of consent from 13 to 16. Young runaway girls are tricked into becoming prostitutes by being befriended by young men who take them to those clubs with extortionate drinks and then tell the girls they are in debt to them and need to work to pay it back. These girls are used and then considered too old and discarded by the time they are 16/17. No-one gave crap as it was legal for these girls to be having sex. The women's groups trying to campaign against this and help the girls got a whole load of grief and their state funding removed.

It remains to be seen if the state will start giving a crap about runaway girls now the age of consent has increased.

It's men letting women know there is nowhere for women to be safe and undefiled.

Remember the case about the man caught for the historic murders of two women, and during the investigation police discovered that he'd been raping dead women and girls in the morgue of the hospital he'd been working at as an electrician?

And another story of a teenage girl murdered (by her brother IIRC) and dumped in a bush, who was then found by a man who allegedly 'interfered' with her body.

You're right, there is nowhere. Even death doesn't guarantee that some women and girls will be safe from predatory men.

Oh look, another poor man driven to be a rapist by childhood abuse
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cx2kdd3n7yqo

Plus - its a good job he recorded the rapes as now the other men cam be prosecuted

Japan has very high rates of sexual violence against women. As others have said, the problem is so bad there are female-only train carriages solely for the purpose of reducing sexual assault on trains.

I'd really like to see some human data to back up your cultural theory. I mean that sincerely, not an attempted gotcha. All the data I'm aware of suggests male violence against women isn't dependent on culture but is pretty much ubiquitous across time and place. I'd very much like to be proved wrong.

Wasn't it Japan that had vending machines selling knickers that had been worn by schoolgirls?

I would not pick Japan as a good example. The underground has female only carriages because assault is so common. Up skirting is/was such a problem the Japanese passed laws that digital cameras had to make a noise when taking a photo.

Looking at stats from Wikki (I know) Sweden has a higher rate of rape than South Africa. But there are various definitions of rape and there are consequences for reporting it in different countries.

Quote from the article linked below:

In another case in Shizuoka, a 14-year-old girl testified that she was repeatedly raped by her father over two years period, but the court concluded that her statements were unreliable and acquitted him of that charge, though the court did find the father guilty of possessing child pornography and fined him 100,000 yen ($1,000).

www.cambridge.org/core/services/aop-cambridge-core/content/view/E5A43CF9D262C99C350C557A8419EB3B/S1479591423000554a.pdf/is_rape_a_crime_in_japan.pdf

I remember hearing decades ago about Japanese manga and one title in particular called 'Rapeman'. Iirc he would sweep into action whenever men cried out that their women were being uppity. Apparently, he solved their relationship problems in his titular style. I'm not into manga or anime, I've heard nothing of the title since, I don't want to google it. I don't know what the Japanese thought of it but just the fact that it existed...! That someones wrote, illustrated and published it, they obviously thought there was a market...

An example of a country with relatively low levels of sexual violence would be Japan.

Anecdote alert: I used to work with a rotation of Japanese colleagues for some time. In the same way as people usually plead guilty for crimes in Japan (99% conviction rate), the women said that the official numbers for sexual violence (rape, assault, battering) bear no relation to women's lives in Japan. There have been substantial family and social deterrents to reporting.

Johnson DT. Is rape a crime in Japan? International Journal of Asian Studies. Published online 2024:1-16. doi:10.1017/S1479591423000554

https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/international-journal-of-asian-studies/article/is-rape-a-crime-in-japan/E5A43CF9D262C99C350C557A8419EB3B

He has admitted it.
"They all knew, they cannot say the contrary," he said.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cx2kdd3n7yqo

IMO porn has been weaponised to train men to act out their aggression on women.

I think the baboon example is highly relevant. After the dominant males died the gender balance returned to normal with new males arriving from other troupes yet the new culture of less violence was maintained for 7 years. That's extremely significant, pointing to levels of violence being more cultural than innate biology (obviously it's both, but this example indicates culture may be more important). I refuse to believe that baboons are better than human males, and if I were a man I'd find that suggestion to be highly offensive.

But anyway, you're obviously free to disagree with me and I'm fine with that.

An example of a country with relatively low levels of sexual violence would be Japan. This may be due to strict laws which are (relatively) more consistently enforced and cultural norms emphasising harmony and social order. Although, I do think the rates of sexual violence are changing and getting worse and I strongly suspect this may be driven by increasing violent online porn.

When I say relative low rates I mean when compared to a country like South Africa. A country not currently at war with weak and ineffective laws and a relatively recent history of apartheid. Those factors are cultural, not biological. Again, pointing to cultural differences making a difference in levels of sexual violence.

@AliasGrace47 Yes, thank you. I couldn't remember her name. What she did was atrocious but what she went through as a child, including the brain damage she suffered, was absolutely shocking. I just can't comprehend how so many men (and the mother!) were complicit in the abuse and no one doing anything to stop it.

Maybe women should start sedating men without their knowledge. Then at least women could go out safely at night and sleep safely in their own homes.

Clearly I’m joking but we need a solution.

Can you share your data about different rates in different times and places? I'd be very interested to see what kind of culture has resulted in low rates of male on female violence in humans. I don't think the baboon example is relevant.

except most of the males in a baboon troupe come from outside the troupe

as most males leave their troupe when they reach adolescence

no, nor am I, not sure it exists

but we do have different rates in different times and places

I've always wondered if the rates of male violence would be far less in a matriarchy, but they are few and far between and I've found a dearth of information on them in regards to... everything about them actually

it wasn't just the absence of the bullies, it was how everyone else changed after they left

baboons leave their troupe when they reach adolescence and join a new troupe

so this troupe had new baboons joining it from other troupes that had the usual violent culture

those baboons would come in and be belligerent and would get calmed down not only by males in the troupe, but by the whole troupe

I do agree with you that to change the culture of our society would be very difficult unless the most violent males were removed, but isn't that supposed to be one function of prison? We need to put men who commit sexual crimes in prison for a long time, and we need to have a high rate of certainty over being caught and convicted for sexual crimes.

Isn't Kier Starmer onto that? To reduce VAWAG by half? /sarc

I also think that the argument that porn has created deviant desires that weren't common in men before is wrong. Yes, it's def amplified them & caused them to seek more extreme stuff. But in Victorian times you had traffic in v unpleasant bks etc & worse, in young girls & even children. That's not new. I would argue that violent, degrading porn wouldn't be popular if the desire for it weren't already present. I don't want to believe that male sexuality is inherently about domination & humiliation (at least when directed at women , I don't know what m/m sexuality is like in comparison). I'm sure for plenty of men it's not. Maybe some men are inherently predisposed to this kind of sexuality? I hope not, but either way, society needs to make encouraging healthy male sexuality a top priority. Men need to sort this out, rather than making it our problem.

I'm not aware of any human societies on earth, past or present, where there was no male-on-female violence.

I think this is the bukakke case Silkinside mentioned? https://tnp.straitstimes.com/news/world/french-police-arrest-3-over-online-porn-violence
Grim - the women involved were vulnerable & lied to about where the videos would be viewed. France has always seemed more misogynistic to m3 than England, but now it seems Frenchwomen are leading the fight against the worst forms of misogyny.

I've heard of bukakke- wish I hadn't. I assumed most of the time the actresses were probs pressured. I didn't realise ordinary men were called in.

Rum, was that case Lisa Montgomery? That case is truly sickening. Honestly it makes me laugh if I read that feminists turn women Against men. Bad men do a good enough job of that! Goid men shouldn't blame women for being scared. That's the fault of the vile men out there, & there are sadly far too many of those.
I'm a history student & I focus on feminist history. I've done some work on rape in WW2 & it was gut-wrenching. What I find worst is: how many soldiers raped women & then went home to have children & grandchildren, who have no idea that their beloved family member did unimaginably horrible things? I don't see war as a driver so much as a safe outlet for taking violent sexual impulses out. Yes, being in a brutal environment will make it more likely, but look at csa & these kinds of cases in peacetime. Some women in violent porn may consent & enjoy, but I doubt v many. So many men just have these impulses. I don't want to think it's innate, many don't, but as a society we're nurturing the bad kind w violent porn.

Ok, I read the article. Apparently in baboon troops, the lower down the ranking you are, the more other baboons beat you up. So in this case, all the bullies left, the lower ranking males liked not being beaten up anymore, and stopped new bullies from joining the pack, so they didn't spend their lives getting beaten up again.

For this to apply to human society we would need males to see violence against women as disadvantageous to themselves so that they shut it down in other males.

Fact is, most men give very little shits about other men being arsey to women. And as a previous poster on here has pointed out, all men benefit from the behaviour of violent men. I am not optimistic, sorry.

I think the nature/ nurture argument is largely settled with the answer being ' its both.'

The rates of male violence differ across countries so we know that culture and environment can increase or decrease rates of male violence. But nowhere is it eliminated.

I think male violence is innate and culture can act to inhibit it, or give it freer reign.

The violent baboons in your example surely did not change but rather died, leading to a change in the troop? Admittedly I did not read the article, so maybe should do that now!