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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

GC Employment tribunal cases have an incredible 78% success rate

44 replies

fromorbit · 14/09/2024 08:35

Prof Jo Phoenix has been doing the sums:

Employment tribunals involving secular gender critical claimants and including full admissions of liability as wins.

12 wins (admission of liability + claims upheld @ ET/EAT)
2 settled by agreement
2 ongoing appeals
2 unsuccessful
1 dismissed at preliminary hearing stage (ruled out of time and/or claimant did not have employment status)

If we include County Court and First Tier Tribunal (General Regulatory Division)

16 wins
2 settled
2 ongoing appeals
2 unsuccessful
1 dismissed

Final tally (so far): 18/23 wins (of cases we know about).

78% success rate.

The context for these GC discrimination belief wins? last 15 years shows less than 5% belief discrimination claims win at hearing & circa 15-20% are unsuccessful at hearing.

But we are winning at a rate of 78% and 3% unsuccessful.

https://x.com/JoPhoenix1/status/1833489501471043829

Mumsnet gardeners are getting AMAZING results. We are winning and we are going to keep winning till everyone admits biological sex exists and it is fine to say it if you are secular.

It isn't just the gardeners. Everyone who comes on Mumsnet or reads it {that includes the TA trolls - Waves thanks guys!] has helped in these wins by helping boost the campaigns and spreading the word. Lots more winning to come.

x.com

https://x.com/JoPhoenix1/status/1833489501471043829

OP posts:
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RedToothBrush · 14/09/2024 16:00

I'd like to know the breakdown backed on cases versus
Public Sector
Private Sector
Third Sector
and
Political Parties

Fgfgfg · 14/09/2024 15:40

StealthSpinach · 14/09/2024 11:38

Why is GC couched in terms of being “secular”?
Is GI defined as a religious belief?

I read it as Jo Phoenix excluding those cases where people's GC beliefs have a basis in religion ie.not basing their objection on science or fact but because the bible says so.

MattDamon · 14/09/2024 15:29

Timefortea4 · 14/09/2024 09:48

Great to see but so frustrating that all these wins have not resulted in more change in employers policies and culture. If this many wins hasn't done it what will?

This isn't related to GC tribunal cases directly, but I was involved in a case where a senior HR figure ran the dept like her own personal fiefdom. Even forgetting her history, she single-handedly cost the company hundreds of thousands of pounds on this one tribunal. It was only when the CEO stepped in to avoid the whole shit show hitting the papers that she grudgingly was forced into settling.

She kept her role and a few months later she was appointed to the board of an influential HR org (if you know, you know). So this awful, incompetent human was allowed to continue to wreak havoc in her existing role, and to advise on professional standards for her entire industry.

Point being, these people do. not. go. away. They may go underground or reverse-ferret, but they are still there, influencing, whispering in ears.

RaspberryParade · 14/09/2024 15:09

WooHoo!
I hoped someone was keeping score,well done Prof Phoenix.
Given our organisational capacities I cant help feeling we would be better at running the country.

StealthSpinach · 14/09/2024 13:04

StickItInTheFamilyAlbum · 14/09/2024 12:20

Because until the late 1990s, nobody anticipated that some givens like sex would need to be defended as a belief rather than a reality. However, relevant legislation meant that Forstater could only be posed on the grounds of a firmly and sincerely held belief, rather than comparable to accepting the existence of gravity.

Secular is used to indicate that it is not a belief that is connected with religious or spiritual matters.

Yes - but is GI specifically designated as secular or is it only GC/sex realist facts that are so described?

anyolddinosaur · 14/09/2024 12:42

encouraging for those still in the pipeline, like the one to protect single sex facilities at work.

The effect may not be immediately apparent but sometimes tankers take a while to slow or turn. Human resource departments will be taking note.

StickItInTheFamilyAlbum · 14/09/2024 12:20

StealthSpinach · 14/09/2024 11:38

Why is GC couched in terms of being “secular”?
Is GI defined as a religious belief?

Because until the late 1990s, nobody anticipated that some givens like sex would need to be defended as a belief rather than a reality. However, relevant legislation meant that Forstater could only be posed on the grounds of a firmly and sincerely held belief, rather than comparable to accepting the existence of gravity.

Secular is used to indicate that it is not a belief that is connected with religious or spiritual matters.

StealthSpinach · 14/09/2024 11:38

Why is GC couched in terms of being “secular”?
Is GI defined as a religious belief?

StickItInTheFamilyAlbum · 14/09/2024 10:47

Terven Academicals top the league.

Obligatory statement, these wins and settlements are at enormous cost to the central figures, emotionally and financially.

On a slight tangent, I was interested to see Metanoia Institute (James Esses) advertising for a Head of Governance and Compliance. It's something I've noticed after Terven Academical cases…

https://www.metanoia.ac.uk/about/careers-at-metanoia-institute/head-of-governance-and-compliance/

https://www.gov.uk/employment-tribunal-decisions/mr-j-esses-v-the-metanoia-institute-and-others-2206164-slash-2021-and-2206708-slash-2021

Interview: w/c 16th Sept   About Us Metanoia is a small but dynamic higher education provider committed to delivering high-quality educational programmes that meet the needs of our student body. We are dedicated to maintaining the highest standards of...

https://www.metanoia.ac.uk/about/careers-at-metanoia-institute/head-of-governance-and-compliance

LoobiJee · 14/09/2024 10:34

“The context for these GC discrimination belief wins? last 15 years shows less than 5% belief discrimination claims win at hearing & circa 15-20% are unsuccessful at hearing.“

Up to 5% win.
Up to 20% lose.

What happened with the remaining 75% of belief claims not about GC belief over the last 15 years?

Timefortea4 · 14/09/2024 10:28

Every part of the public sector seems to need that.

akkakk · 14/09/2024 10:25

Timefortea4 · 14/09/2024 09:48

Great to see but so frustrating that all these wins have not resulted in more change in employers policies and culture. If this many wins hasn't done it what will?

I think there needs to be a more proactive and publicised campaign - much like Stonewall of previous years - an organisation going into / contacting major corporations with the message - here are the stats - are you breaking the law? - how are you supporting your staff to be GC? - we can help you make sure your policies are legal…

not much will happen if HR departments who are already captured are left to work it out on their own

NotBadConsidering · 14/09/2024 10:10

Someone tell the Fox Killer, he might start winning if he backs the right horse for a change.

Or would the success rate go down if he did? He doesn’t seem very good at what he does🤔

Cailin66 · 14/09/2024 09:51

fromorbit · 14/09/2024 08:35

Prof Jo Phoenix has been doing the sums:

Employment tribunals involving secular gender critical claimants and including full admissions of liability as wins.

12 wins (admission of liability + claims upheld @ ET/EAT)
2 settled by agreement
2 ongoing appeals
2 unsuccessful
1 dismissed at preliminary hearing stage (ruled out of time and/or claimant did not have employment status)

If we include County Court and First Tier Tribunal (General Regulatory Division)

16 wins
2 settled
2 ongoing appeals
2 unsuccessful
1 dismissed

Final tally (so far): 18/23 wins (of cases we know about).

78% success rate.

The context for these GC discrimination belief wins? last 15 years shows less than 5% belief discrimination claims win at hearing & circa 15-20% are unsuccessful at hearing.

But we are winning at a rate of 78% and 3% unsuccessful.

https://x.com/JoPhoenix1/status/1833489501471043829

Mumsnet gardeners are getting AMAZING results. We are winning and we are going to keep winning till everyone admits biological sex exists and it is fine to say it if you are secular.

It isn't just the gardeners. Everyone who comes on Mumsnet or reads it {that includes the TA trolls - Waves thanks guys!] has helped in these wins by helping boost the campaigns and spreading the word. Lots more winning to come.

Every single case I sent carrots to has led to a win, so I’m at 100% including contributing to Jo.

I haven't read the link, but I’d image the percentage of 78% would be higher as initially when Maya lost it was the thinking back than that if you said a man can never be a woman was “wrong think” but that has changed.

Timefortea4 · 14/09/2024 09:48

Great to see but so frustrating that all these wins have not resulted in more change in employers policies and culture. If this many wins hasn't done it what will?

popeydokey · 14/09/2024 09:44

People who are fundamentally dishonest and claim to believe contradictory things have a hard time when actually having to answer questions as to why they treat people appallingly.

WarriorN · 14/09/2024 09:31

Brilliant news - not least as more will come forward and the employers will increasingly realise they're being unlawful

BettyFilous · 14/09/2024 08:58

The high GC success rate is a pretty damning measure of employers flagrantly breaking the law and the seriousness of the bullying and harassment that claimants have been subjected to. It’s appalling.

soupycustard · 14/09/2024 08:48

Hurray! Nice to have some good news. Thank you for posting!

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