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Original poster

'Gender apartheid' - risks and benefits

170 replies

ArabellaScott · 11/09/2024 09:17

Recent calls for 'gender apartheid' to be made a crime against humanity.

https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/02/gender-apartheid-must-be-recognised-crime-against-humanity-un-experts-say

“State laws, policies and practices that relegate women to conditions of extreme inequality and oppression, with the intent of effectively extinguishing their human rights, reflect the very core of apartheid systems,” the experts said.

'existing forms of gender-specific crimes, including gender persecution, while useful and relevant, do not fully capture the institutionalised and widespread nature of the deprivation of rights involved in systems of gender apartheid. “Only the apartheid framework can fully grasp the role of intent, ideology and institutionalisation in gender apartheid regimes as seen in Afghanistan,” they said.'

The idea is that this would make it easier to criticise Afghanistan.

Are there any potential downsides? Will it actually help the situation?

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poppyzbrite4 · 11/09/2024 16:10

DeanElderberry · 11/09/2024 16:02

In the case of Afghanistan it will refer to biological women (sex) and transwomen (social construct).

So women and men. It will be meaningless, toothless, pointless, ineffective, do no good to anyone except lawyers. Bet the Afghans would insist all the lawyers are men too.

No, it will apply to women and transwomen. Men aren't being oppressed in Afghanistan as you know.

DeanElderberry · 11/09/2024 16:06

I can live with this definition as it prohibits persecution for not conforming to stereotypes.

Then what does it have to do with transwomen who are all about conforming to stereotypes, that is what transwomen are, men who invent, define, establish, and conform to a stereotype of the 'feminine'.

DeanElderberry · 11/09/2024 16:02

In the case of Afghanistan it will refer to biological women (sex) and transwomen (social construct).

So women and men. It will be meaningless, toothless, pointless, ineffective, do no good to anyone except lawyers. Bet the Afghans would insist all the lawyers are men too.

Imnobody4 · 11/09/2024 16:02

Snowypeaks · 11/09/2024 14:25

Do you mind if I answer you with a couple of questions?

Are the women and girls of Afghanistan and Iran oppressed and brutalised because they have a feminine gender identity, or because they are female?

Would you describe the worldwide problem of male violence against women as sex-based violence or gender-based violence?

Is misogyny the hatred and fear of women, or of anyone with a feminine gender identity or sex characteristics?

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Are the women and girls of Afghanistan and Iran oppressed and brutalised because they have a feminine gender identity, or because they are female?
Obviously because of their sex.

Would you describe the worldwide problem of male violence against women as sex-based violence or gender-based violence?

I would describe it as sex based violence.

The ICC on law against gender persecution defines gender as:
Under article 7(3) of the Rome Statute (“Statute”), “gender” is understood
as the two sexes, male and female, within the context of society. Gender
refers to sex characteristics and social constructs and criteria used to
define maleness and femaleness, including roles, behaviours, activities
and attributes.
3 As a social construct, gender varies within societies and from society to society and can change over time. This understanding of gender is in accordance with article 21 of the Statute

I can live with this definition as it prohibits persecution for not conforming to stereotypes. It makes it possible to resist the persecution of certain women eg lesbians, widows, footballers, witches. It does not include gender identity. Do you think this statute has caused harm to women and should be repealed or changed to sex. What practical difference would that make?

Is misogyny the hatred and fear of women, or of anyone with a feminine gender identity or sex characteristics?

Obviously of women however that can translate into hatred of men showing 'feminine' stereotypes. It's origin however lies in hatred and contempt of women.

poppyzbrite4 · 11/09/2024 16:00

Snowypeaks · 11/09/2024 15:56

Check the definition in the Rome Statute. That is the definition that the ICC use. Why do you think it would be sex in the new crime?

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For the purpose of this Statute, it is understood that the term "gender" refers to the two sexes, male and female, within the context of society.

Because that's the UN definition of gender.

Snowypeaks · 11/09/2024 15:58

ArabellaScott · 11/09/2024 15:57

This one:

www.ejiltalk.org/gender-persecution-and-gender-apartheid-in-afghanistan-seeking-the-appropriate-legal-basis-for-international-accountability

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Thanks.

That contact email address in an earlier post doesn't seem to be an email address, either but SM will sort it out, I'm sure.

Original poster
ArabellaScott · 11/09/2024 15:58

I wonder what Reem Alsalem's view on the subject is.

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Snowypeaks · 11/09/2024 15:56

poppyzbrite4 · 11/09/2024 15:54

No that is the definition the UN use. It refers to both the sex of the person including sex characteristics and the social construct of gender. It refers to men, women and the LGBTQ community.

In the case of Afghanistan it will refer to biological women (sex) and transwomen (social construct).

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Check the definition in the Rome Statute. That is the definition that the ICC use. Why do you think it would be sex in the new crime?

Snowypeaks · 11/09/2024 15:55

ArabellaScott · 11/09/2024 15:49

Snowy please also link that other article from the lawyer, it seems very pertinent.

Do you mean this one?
https://www.icc-cpi.int/news/office-prosecutor-launches-public-principles-advance-understanding-crime-gender-persecution

poppyzbrite4 · 11/09/2024 15:54

Snowypeaks · 11/09/2024 15:44

poppy

The definition of "gender" the ICC are using is out of gender ideology.

"Under article 7(3) of the Rome Statute (“Statute”), “gender” is understood as the two sexes, male and female, within the context of society. Gender refers to sex characteristics and social constructs and criteria used to define maleness and femaleness, including roles, behaviours, activities and attributes. 3 As a social construct, gender varies within societies and from society to society and can change over time. This understanding of gender is in accordance with article 21 of the Statute."
“Gender persecution” is the crime against humanity of persecution on the grounds of gender, under article 7(1)(h) of the Statute. Gender persecution is committed against persons because of sex characteristics and/or because of the social constructs and criteria used to define gender"

Do you have a source for a different definition?

No that is the definition the UN use. It refers to both the sex of the person including sex characteristics and the social construct of gender. It refers to men, women and the LGBTQ community.

In the case of Afghanistan it will refer to biological women (sex) and transwomen (social construct).

Original poster
ArabellaScott · 11/09/2024 15:49

Snowy please also link that other article from the lawyer, it seems very pertinent.

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Original poster
ArabellaScott · 11/09/2024 15:48

Snowypeaks · 11/09/2024 15:32

I'm going to alert Sex Matters - this needs to be a properly organised campaign.

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Good plan. Maybe also worth its own thread. Although maybe this is it ...

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DeanElderberry · 11/09/2024 15:46

social constructs eh?

fucking weasels

Snowypeaks · 11/09/2024 15:44

poppy

The definition of "gender" the ICC are using is out of gender ideology.

"Under article 7(3) of the Rome Statute (“Statute”), “gender” is understood as the two sexes, male and female, within the context of society. Gender refers to sex characteristics and social constructs and criteria used to define maleness and femaleness, including roles, behaviours, activities and attributes. 3 As a social construct, gender varies within societies and from society to society and can change over time. This understanding of gender is in accordance with article 21 of the Statute."
“Gender persecution” is the crime against humanity of persecution on the grounds of gender, under article 7(1)(h) of the Statute. Gender persecution is committed against persons because of sex characteristics and/or because of the social constructs and criteria used to define gender"

Do you have a source for a different definition?

DeanElderberry · 11/09/2024 15:43

I'll guess. It doesn't mean sex?

poppyzbrite4 · 11/09/2024 15:37

theilltemperedclavecinist · 11/09/2024 15:34

I'm not sure if you're being satirical, but you seem to be suggesting that people with common sense will easily distinguish between the real women and the transwomen when applying the law, which is seen by some as transphobic. Don't worry, I don't mind if you are. Everything is transphobic.

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No, that's not what I'm saying at all. There is a legal definition of gender that the UN use. They'll use that definition when applying the law.

theilltemperedclavecinist · 11/09/2024 15:34

poppyzbrite4 · 11/09/2024 15:12

I suppose, when you think about it, anything is possible. That specialists in human rights haven't got a clue what a woman is and simply wouldn't be able to apply a law, because they can't work it out.

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I'm not sure if you're being satirical, but you seem to be suggesting that people with common sense will easily distinguish between the real women and the transwomen when applying the law, which is seen by some as transphobic. Don't worry, I don't mind if you are. Everything is transphobic.

Snowypeaks · 11/09/2024 15:32

ArabellaScott · 11/09/2024 15:13

https://www.icc-cpi.int/news/office-prosecutor-launches-public-principles-advance-understanding-crime-gender-persecution

'The Prosecutor of the International Criminal Court, Mr Karim A.A. Khan KC, is pleased to announce a new initiative to advance accountability for the crime against humanity of persecution on the grounds of gender. This initiative will culminate in a comprehensive set of principles on gender persecution to provide guidance for increasing its prevention, and ensuring protection and participation of its survivors.
Complementing and building on the 2022 Policy on the Crime of Gender Persecution, this new initiative will help to further promote accountability, transparency and predictability in the work of the Office in this crucial area and serve as broader guidance internationally. The principles will be developed on the basis of international criminal law and human rights law, drawing from applicable treaties and general principles and rules of international law. It will also draw on the jurisprudence of the Court and other relevant human rights and accountability mechanisms.

'In this first round of external consultations, the Office welcomes and encourages comments on the substance of the initiative early in the drafting process and prior to the first draft being produced and circulated for further input. The Prosecutor is of the view that external consultations on its policies and working methods are important for maintaining and furthering transparency and predictability, and generating the most comprehensive principles and policies. Comments will therefore be sought during the drafting process: first before the draft has been formulated, and a second round to solicit more specific and focused feedback.

Comments can be sent to [email protected] by Friday, 22 November 2024, midnight, CET. All input received by the deadline will be carefully considered in the internal review and revision process.'

I'm going to alert Sex Matters - this needs to be a properly organised campaign.

Original poster
ArabellaScott · 11/09/2024 15:29

It looks like a grand waste of time going through the whole process of creating 'Gender Apartheid' when we have the ability to use existing 'Gender Persecution' laws to target the Taliban.

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Original poster
ArabellaScott · 11/09/2024 15:28

Sorry for the unrelated image/link. I can't seem to delete it.

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Original poster
ArabellaScott · 11/09/2024 15:28

'the challenge lies in effectively implementing existing legal frameworks rather than in the creation of new ones.'

'Civil society’s involvement is key to exerting pressure on the ICC prosecutor and urging the court to prioritise addressing the dire situation in Afghanistan – recently ranked the saddest country in the world. A targeted campaign, grounded in the legal jurisdiction of the ICC, focusing on gender persecution regarding women’s plight could be effective. Advocating for the issuance of arrest warrants against key Taliban leaders would hit two birds with one stone, addressing this issue and potentially achieving two objectives simultaneously.
Firstly, it would constitute a significant stride towards accountability, marking the initial step to secure international recognition of the Taliban’s international crimes.
Secondly, it would preclude any possibility of diplomatic relations between State Parties to the Rome Statute and the Taliban’s de facto government – ensuring their non-recognition. If arrest warrants are issued, State Parties would be obligated to arrest the Taliban leaders and surrender them to The Hague if they were to enter their territory, as there are no immunities within international criminal law amongst State parties.'

Why the ICC’s Judgment in the Al-Bashir Case Wasn’t So Surprising

Why the ICC's recent ruling about Jordan and Omar al-Bashir was unsurprising, correctly decided, and consistent with the Court’s judicial mandate.

https://www.justsecurity.org/64896/why-the-iccs-judgment-in-the-al-bashir-case-wasnt-so-surprising/

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poppyzbrite4 · 11/09/2024 15:27

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 11/09/2024 15:13

The law will be applied to cases where there is an institutionalised system of discrimination, oppression and domination as well as inhumane acts

But not only to those countries and not only to genuinely inhumane acts. There's perceived inhumanity as well. Australia for example.

They'll see gender as biological women and those who identify as women.

And that nails the problem - the second bit. Some of "those who identify as women" - mainly the ones who are not women - have so far proved to be very effective at promoting their cause at the expense of women and girls.

(edited to highlighted quotes)

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But not only to those countries and not only to genuinely inhumane acts. There's perceived inhumanity as well. Australia for example.

It's not just about inhumanity. The law is in three parts which I described above. They have to apply for the law to take effect. You would have to prove that there was an institutionalised system of oppression such as the Taliban has created. Alongside the other aspects of the law.

And that nails the problem - the second bit. Some of "those who identify as women" - mainly the ones who are not women - have so far proved to be very effective at promoting their cause at the expense of women and girls.

This is turning into a rabbit hole. I could for example, say that people are committing genocide against me because I can't use men's toilets. I wouldn't be able to find a lawyer to take my case to court because the elements of genocide haven't taken place.

People are free to claim whatever they like, they have to prove their case in a court of law. If it was an individual claiming oppression, it would more likely be seen as persecution. Systemic oppression would include more than one person.

Even if a group of individuals came forward and claimed Gender Apartheid, they'd have to prove all the elements of the law were in place.

Original poster
ArabellaScott · 11/09/2024 15:25

https://www.ejiltalk.org/gender-persecution-and-gender-apartheid-in-afghanistan-seeking-the-appropriate-legal-basis-for-international-accountability/

'The Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court (ICC) and the Ljubljana Convention on the investigation and prosecution of international crimes both include gender-based offences, particularly within the definition of crimes against humanity (CAH). Notably, CAH includes the offence of gender persecution (GP), which is defined as the severe deprivation of women’s fundamental rights based on their gender.
Hence, the severe deprivation of women’s fundamental rights can serve as a legal basis for pursuing the individual criminal responsibility of Taliban members who commit this crime, whether through direct or indirect involvement. Additionally, any State that aids the Taliban’s de facto regime in perpetrating gender persecution may be held internationally accountable for failing in its obligations to prevent CAHs as outlined in the Ljubljana Convention – provided that this State ratifies the new convention
However, part of the public discourse surrounding the plight of women in Afghanistan does not centre around the concept of GP, but instead focuses on a relatively new expression: “gender apartheid” (GA). The concept of GA was popularised by Dr. Karima Bennoune within the context of Afghanistan, and it has since been adopted by numerous governmental and non-governmental organisations.
As of today, GA lacks a legal basis. While the Rome Statute and the Ljubljana Convention both address the CAH of apartheid, their definitions do not currently incorporate gender. However, despite this notable limitation, Dr. Karima Bennoune and other scholars advocate for efforts to be made towards the inclusion of GA within international conventions, aiming to pursue accountability for the actions of the Taliban. While I fully support the collective sentiment amongst part of scholarship regarding the need to unequivocally condemn and punish the Taliban de facto regime, I find myself questioning whether this call would be more efficient if grounded in relevant legal frameworks.'

Gender Persecution and Gender Apartheid in Afghanistan: Seeking the Appropriate Legal Basis for International Accountability

From as early as 1980, Afghanistan signed the Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination Against Women (CEDAW), a decisive step in protecting women’s rights to equality, notably i…

https://www.ejiltalk.org/gender-persecution-and-gender-apartheid-in-afghanistan-seeking-the-appropriate-legal-basis-for-international-accountability

OP posts:
DeanElderberry · 11/09/2024 15:18

Why would the UN try to bring in a meaningless law?

In an attempt to bamboozle women and those concerned for women in, for example, Afghanistan or India or Iran, while not doing anything to antagonise the hugely wealthy and power-hungry pharmaceutical and porn industries. Or men.