Women with internalised misogyny- victims?

I'm not sure what your argument here is. You're saying that you don't believe women who say they've been sexually assaulted unless what? Do you need proof of the assault? If you look at the statistics, there are only a tiny percentage of false claims. If a friend said they'd been sexually assaulted, you wouldn't believe them because not all women tell the truth.

People saying that women who are calling other women mysogynist because they have a difference of opinion are either being disengenuous or don't know what mysogyny is.

Whether women - as a group, that is to say statistically - have different behaviours from men, and why. And what the outcomes of the statistical reality are.

I'm not sure what this is referring to. I was referring to mysogynist tropes. These are negative stereotypes directed at women. Do you have those stats on the behaviour of 3bn women all acting the same?

Whether women should be feminists and what feminism is.

Feminism is the belief in equality amongst other things. If a woman doesn't believe she's equal to man, surely that's because of internalised misogyny.

How to treat abortion legally and what it means morally

There was no debate on this, it was given as an example of internalised misogyny. A woman denying another woman an abortion.

Whether it is ok to have page 3 models, or be a page 3 model.

Again there wasn't a debate on this, it was mentioned. I would count a woman who agreed with women being used as sexual objects, as having internalised misogyny.

Even about gender ideology.

I'll have to re read the thread as I don't remember this. I would need to know what that person said and their argument.

Not believing that every woman is honest isn't misogynistic, as long as you aren't spouting those tired rape myths that portray women as commonly making false sexual assault charges.
I think the believing women thing is not really about believing every single woman, it's saying that the overwhelming majority of the time, women are telling the truth about sexual assault, so it makes sense to err on the side of belief rather than on disbelief.

I do know of one woman (who was an acquaintance for a very short time as I couldn't stand her) who turned out to be a proven false rape accuser, but she wasn't believed and I doubt there are many who are, considering it's so hard to get authorities to believe a truthful claim. This idiot had consensually fucked a date right in front of CCTV and claimed he randomly attacked her. She had tried it with a previous date as well.
I'm sure it occasionally happens that a liar is believed, just as with any other false accusation. I had the miserable experience of being falsely accused of physical assault, so that obviously happens as well.

I think it's a sign of internalized misogyny when women do things like blame the victim of sexual assault, shame women for being less than perfect Stepford wives/GFs/mothers, shame other women for either their sexuality or a supposed lack thereof (not "sexy" enough, sexually "uptight," etcetera) and any kind of shame heaped on women for not following traditional gender stereotypes. Expecting women to aquiesce to men's demands (like accepting biological males in single sex spaces) may partly be about internalized misogyny in some cases, but more likely it's just about the kind of wholescale tolerance and acceptance ideology that doesn't have enough critical thinking behind it.

So I think it can be a valid supposition, as judged on a case by case basis.
Sometimes it's like you can feel the contempt for other women oozing out of somebody, and you just know. I see no reason why one can't express the belief that somebody is responding as she is based on internalized misogyny, as long as the belief seems reasonable based on the evidence at hand.That's true of any belief you have about another person.

But i do think it gets used the other way - and then if you object to it you are deemed a misogynist. so I struggled with the i believe you campaign a few years ago - i forget the tag line- but effectively said i always believe women claiming sexual abuse/rape - eg all women are honest - does not supporting that make me a misogygnist
women, even feminists don't have the same views about everything and to call them misogynist is an easy slur

Truth. The self- centredness of people never fails to depress me.

I'm ashamed to admit that I used to be one of those women. I used to hang out with the guys, agreeing with their misogynistic slurs and laughing that I wasn't one of those women. Then years later I got divorced from a porn-addled, (self-diagnosed) narcissistic cunt and the scales fell from my eyes. I can't really explain or justify why I was like that. The only defence that I have is that I was incredibly naive and found it hard to make female friends. My male friends accepted me in a way that women didn't, probably because they could sense my vulnerability and in their eyes I was a pretty trophy to bring to nights out and if I'm honest maybe someone they thought they could fuck. I hope that makes sense, like OP I'm not great with words and am possibly ASD too.
I've had 5 long term relationships in my life and I can now see that, aside from my lovely current partner, only one actually liked/respected/loved me, the others used and abused me for their own ends and I just didn't see it.
I'm a proper feminist now.

This.

"I find women bitchy" strikes me more as a personal experience. Literally - I general "I find women harder to get on with." It's not offering much curiosity or analysis, but does it have to?

The underlying sense in this thread is these people are either fibbing or imposing an external view of women as difficult, rather than reporting their actual experiences. So it's an a priori assumption that women who say they find women harder to be friends with are not describing the actual situation - they are liars or self-deluded.

I think that there are people with internalized hatred.

But that's actually quite rarely the reason we see people disagree in the kinds of discussions we see around MN.

The last page was largely a claim that that AIBU thread talking about female friends was about internalized misogyny. There was really nothing in that thread that was particularly suggestive of that.

That kind of explanation should probably be about the last one we reach for, and it should ideally be supported by some other evidence of knowledge showing the person has such sentiments. Otherwise a better assumption is that there is a reason based on the person's logical process or personal experiences and observations.

Women as a group having statistically significant behaviour differences to men that is down to nature not nurture= opinion or debate. "I just find women super bitchy" "all women are annoying/lie about stuff" =internalised misogyny.

Many of the things people have mentioned in this thread specifically are very much differences of opinion.

Whether women - as a group, that is to say statistically - have different behaviours from men, and why. And what the outcomes of the statistical reality are.
Whether women should be feminists and what feminism is.
How to treat abortion legally and what it means morally
Whether it is ok to have page 3 models, or be a page 3 model.
Even about gender ideology.

These are all things lots of people have opinions about that aren't caused by internalized misogyny. And it gets leveled for a lot of other controversial questions that feminists like to claim ownership of too.

I don't know...
I been on other threads with you and disagreed quite strongly with some of your posts - I think we are in very different places politically. But I don't think I have ever thought anything you said came across as misogyny or internalised misogyny. I think there is such a thing as internalised misogyny - and its different to just "I disagree with this person". Yes, some people will use it to mean "any opinions I disagree with" in the same way some people use the word "far right" or "communist" to mean the same thing. But it doesn't mean those descriptions are never valid.

Are there women who hate women, or black people who hate being black, or gay or lesbian people who hate homosexuality? Probably a few, but usually that's not why they disagree with the left or identitarian belief on a particular topic.

To me internalised misogyny is when for example, believe that women’s worth is tied to being in a relationship/married to a man, to having children.
That childless/free women are useless, selfish, wrong etc.
Or that it’s women’s duty to objectify themselves, so make-up, revealing clothes. Or else they are ugly, or not taking care of themselves.

I don’t think it’s about not liking being a woman in and of itself.
I once hated being a woman, but that was because of societal expectations that are imposed to women.
For example the things I just listed.

People don't like it when you point that out. When I say 3bn women can't all be [insert stereotype], I get told to stop saying that. I think that having internalised mysogyny means that you don't like to have your views challenged.

It's absolutely impossible for all women to think or behave in the same way or have the same interests.

I don't believe anyone means women with different opinions have internalised mysogyny. In my opinion internalised mysogyny is believing mysogynist tropes about yourself and other women, and siding with misogynists over women.

An example of internalised mysogyny would be a woman telling a survivor of sexual assault that she brought it on herself.

I find the two terms are used pretty interchangeably, but sure, say it's like Uncle Tom if you l think it's a more accurate. comparison.

I'm not sure what would make the comparison "inappropriate".

Essentially you are saying that women who don't think the way you believe they ought to about certain issues must have some kind of internal self-hatred, or be more identifying with males (the enemy).

It's a way to shut people down and invalidate their views as wrongthink.

Are there women who hate women, or black people who hate being black, or gay or lesbian people who hate homosexuality? Probably a few, but usually that's not why they disagree with the left or identitarian belief on a particular topic.

Because what is good for the individual isn't always good for the collective and vice versa.

I think this is one of the main reasons. People usually put the interests of themselves, their family, their "in-group" etc. first. Even feminist women.

You get lots of cookies for agreeing with misogynists and life is far easier when you toe the line.

Yep.

Because while there are aspects of feminism most women agree on, there are also aspects of feminism, or branches of feminism, that conflict with women’s beliefs in other areas.

For example, I see a lot of Germaine Greer quoting on Mumsnet about “women have no idea how much men hate them.” Most women don’t believe men, as a group, hate them. I don’t believe men, as a group, hate women. Feminists also sometimes have a dismissive attitude towards problems men have - who cares if men kill themselves at notably higher rates than women, women attempt suicide more! And a lot of the feminist “movers and shakers,” who tend to come from very educated and usually affluent backgrounds, have a tendency to do two things that are very off-putting.

One, they spend too much time on cultural trivia that’s not terribly important in the grand scheme of things. (Oh no, Greta Gerwig was nominated for the Best Adapted Screenplay Oscar, but not Best Director!) Two, they refuse to acknowledge that not every single man has a higher position in society than they do simple by virtue of being a man. When it comes to the ability to influence other people and shape laws, society, and education, who has more power? A working-class man who left school at sixteen, has never travelled more than fifty miles away from where he was born, and spends his time watching football with his friends when he’s not trying to budget around his child support payments? Or a feminist influencer with a degree from a top university, who has the money to donate to political causes and the time to go to marches and protests? For too many of the most influential feminists, the answer is “men have more power in society than women,” full stop.

Women also have a whole variety of opinions on the role of mothers, when abortion should and shouldn’t be legal, religion. Only some of those opinions seem to be permissible in feminism.

I think “internalized misogyny” is a term that’s overused. Sometimes women don’t hate other women, or themselves for being women - they’re insecure, or a particular issue has never affected them or anyone they know. And I’ve seen it used way too often as a tactic some women use to try to shame other women into shutting up.

I don’t know or care if I’m a feminist or not. I try to do what I think is the right thing, regardless of whatever label people want to slap on it.

No it's not because calling a black person a food item is insulting, dehumanising racism.

Whereas 'internalised misogyny' or 'internalised racism' are descriptive and valid as opinions.

"The oppressors would not be so powerful, if they did not have accomplices among the oppressed."

I think saying someone has "internalized misogyny" is often about the same as calling someone black an Oreo, because they don't have the political opinions you think they ought to.

Unfortunately we wouldn't have patriarchy without female helpmates. It's devastating.

Yes, (some) women have always acted against the collective interest of all women. See:women who opposed women getting the vote, women who oppose abortion, women who are Page 3 models, women on juries who don’t want to ruin nice young men’s lives by convicting them of rape.