John Lewis 'allows trans women into bra-fitting rooms' as retailer hit by furious gender row

I've had plenty of bra fitting at JL. It's always in a private cubicle.

I agree. And I also agree that bra fitting is very beneficial for some women. I can't believe how uncomfortable many bras still are. It really does seem like it's harder than rocket science.

However, it's just become rather apparent that some men believe it's something that all women do, on a regular basis, as a girly 'thing'. And they view it as a rite of passage.

to me, it comes from the same place as wanting to carry around a tampon.

It's appropriating women's biology to get a sexual thrill. It's so creepy, it's hard to believe these men don't just self combust from creepness.

And all coming from the same place, in my opinion. Women are often expected to wear flimsy, lacy bras with bits of wire in them, and their ease and comfort is the last thing on the list, because - male gaze. And there are these men who are fetishising this sexism for their own ends, by wanting to try on, guess what? floaty lacy bras because 'that's what women do'.

I can be a bit of a bore on this subject, because I'm quite evangelical about thinking more women should get fitted. Far too many women put up with discomfort because they're wearing the wrong size bra.

Be that as it may, I still remain to be convinced that there are TW out there who need the service. Cross-sex hormones won't grow very much, and anyone who's had implants done knows what size they are. Besides, as PP have pointed out, men's proportions are totally different. You would want bras designed for male backs and shoulders.

There are shops that cater to cross-dressing men, that could provide these undergarments. But that wouldn't scratch a very particular itch.

And so we come back to the women and girls who actually do use the service. Girls in particular - if you're trying to persuade a reluctant teen to get fitted, it really doesn't help to have some bloke hanging around, let alone prioritising whatever the bloke is getting out of the experience.

I know it's a bit of a cliche now, but that's because it's true - good men stay out, so bad men stand out.

In answer to the PP - Some of the men who go into women’s changing areas are indeed doing it for erotic reasons - see clips in this thread for example. Also, you don’t need to be a genius to work out that men who are sexually aroused by dressing as women (as some TW are) should not be women’s changing rooms.

Generally, if men claim to be trans women - how could we tell? But men, whether they identify as women, just claim to for access, or just seek access because women are bullied if they try to say “no”, should not be in women’s changing rooms. The blokes can budge up for a change and accommodate difference, because they don’t need to fear sexual assault.

I know it’s just words, but I’m truly sorry for the experiences you had as a child. It makes me so sad that girls always end up carrying the burden of silence and feel unable to speak out.
Victims of abuse are often made to feel responsible for the behaviour of men, the fact that they encouraged or threatened into remaining silent, often means it’s difficult to separate themselves from what’s happened.
I hope your life has turned out well despite these harrowing incidents ❤️

It's not a need, signed a woman in her 40s similarly "blessed" who has never had it done.

So what's the solution ElleWoods15?

You seem to be arguing that there isn't one.

oh for goodness sake. Accessing a female only bra fitting service is not a need for a man.

Yes this is important to bear in mind when discussing with people unfamiliar with genderist language.

As a woman blessed/cursed with hefty boobs I can assure you that it can well be a need.

I subscribe to Ray Blanchard's typology. There are indeed, two types of transwomen, HSTS - homosexual transsexuals, and autogynephiles.

It's pretty obvious why men with AGP would want to access a women only space.

But in either event, women's spaces are for women. They're not there to validate the feelings of men.

Just a reminder after seeing the little spat above by 2 posters (that may actually agree with each other!)
that due to the deliberately confusing language about trans issues some people use the phrase 'transgender men' to mean 'women who say they are men', and others use it to mean 'men who say they are women'.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/08/06/third-of-britons-dont-know-trans-women-born-male/
Clarity is important when it comes to these issues!

Firstly, I can apply to who I like. And secondly, it doesn't matter if it's all.

Not all teachers are dodgy, but they all have to have DBS checks.

If enough men are showing up in women's intimate spaces that it's turned into a porn genre and they are posting their videos online, the time has clearly long past to pretend it's not a problem.

Are you saying that there is no solution to this problem? That women just have to put up with it?

'Accessing a bra-fitting service' is not a 'need' or a right.

Sure, just the ones trying to access women's spaces and services.

With respect not when you seek to apply that to all trans women.

It’s about giving trans women access to bra fitting services which they may need to access.

But why would they be going to departments selling female clothes? If they're looking for something that actually fits.

There are specialist suppliers that can provide bras, high-heeled shoes and whatever else they want in male sizes. They're unlikely to find anything appropriate in the women's department of a high-street store.

Even women with outlying sizes can struggle in normal shops, and most men are way outside that.

It's doesn't take much thought to conclude that finding clothes that fit isn't the point...

When you see that enough men are absolutely totally upfront about it, so much so that it's become a porn genre, your offence is misplaced.

Take it up with them.

There are a lot of shops that provide men with 'women's' clothes and underwear.

Men's bodies are an entirely different shape and women's clothes and underwear don't fit properly.

But you seem to be insinuating that all trans women are, to use the phrase used previously, ‘erotic thrill seekers’.

Which is both incredibly offensive and just patently untrue.

Those women don't matter, Arabella. They're service humans.

Again. We're not allowed to articulate this, are we?

Fortunately we don't have to. The Internet is awash with men identifying as women violating women's spaces. From the thrill of wielding knives in women's toilets, to getting so excited today ejaculate on toilet paper and underwear, and, of course, carrying tampax, in case they can offer them to the women there

What exactly do you mean by ‘shops that cater to cross dressers’?!