John Lewis 'allows trans women into bra-fitting rooms' as retailer hit by furious gender row

I never shop in John Lewis. Now I have a reason not to.

Grotty buggers.

This has reminded me of my very first job at the age of 16. I worked in a jeans shop,in the men's dept.
It was truly astonishing how many men claimed that they didn't know their inside leg measurement. I only lasted 3 weeks.

You're seldom measured because JL bra fitters can invariably size you by eye.

Yes. Lots of places to do this. Because bra sizes change from company to company.

Frankly, any bloke who really wanted a bra could do it by zoom.

🎯
This is it. Not. Our. Problem.

I am a woman and have no interest where men might get their bras fitted.

Nothing to do with me, or any other woman.

In my local department store the lingerie department has curtains with a gap at the bottom. They may be cubicles in JL but not everywhere and I don’t want to be in a cubicle with a bloke measuring my breasts anyway, however he identifies!

Yes, I have one every year - last one three weeks ago. All very discreet- you're ushered into a private cubicle, given bras to try on and the fitter waits outside until you're ready. You're seldom measured because JL bra fitters can invariably size you by eye. It the fitter comes into the cubicle to adjust a strap, she asks permission and sort of sidles in without opening the door fully.
I absolutely need a fitter, not so much that she knows my size but that she knows her stock. Bras can vary hugely even within the same range - different strap styles, cut, etc. Some fit, some don't. So, firstly, don't tell me I don't need a bra fitter; I do.
And additionally, there's not much chance of men 'parading around' in the fitting room - just can't imagine how that scenario would work, given the protocols I experienced. I've never had so much as a glimpse of other women getting fitted.

However, I absolutely hate the idea of sharing that space with men who are identifying as women. Bloody hate it. Hate sharing loos. Hate the invasion of privacy. Hate being expected to pay lip service to this set of delusions, and hate what it's doing to anyone who speaks out, no matter how mildly. Particularly hate the infiltration by the rabid sector of the BMA.

I once stood in a M&S lingerie queue that contained a trans-identifying man. This person insisted on trying to engage the women in the queue, talking about how difficult it is to find a bra that fits, isn’t it, etc, in a voice like Les Dawson. Everyone around him was embarrassed and giving clear signs that they didn’t want to engage, but he was undeterred. These men seem to imagine that ‘we girls’ ‘share’ wherever we gather.

Maybe John Lewis need a separate fitting area for men with breasts or they get fitted in the men’s changing room. It’s not hard to solve if only men were reasonable about this.

I do not want to hear a man having a bra fitted.

Strewth. Can you imagine? Seriously.

The cubicles are not private. It is possible to hear every word, every rustle, every murmur from the adjoining cubicle.

I do not want to hear a man having a bra fitted. And I certainly do not want him to hear me having a bra fitted.

This ^

Good Lord. Many women won't dream of going to a bra fitting, precisely because they're far too self-conscious.

Although the end product is often (not always) good, the process can be a little cringe. Especially as it's normally women with a fuller figure who do it.

It's a means to an end. It's not a girly fun half hour.

And no, I don't want some bloke, definitely entitled, and possibly fetishistic, overhearing it.

I can't believe it's even up for question.

It's bloody annoying even having the husbands/male partners of women in underwear changing rooms milling about. Just go away.

I recall an interview with someone (female) who mentioned that when she heard a male voice in the toilet cubicle next to her she froze. Just waited and waited until he had left. There is even less sound insulation between fitting cubicles. Sometimes a door of not full height. Not that private if opposite sex are around and about. I would not be happy to hear male voice in female space. It's not only bras. These are spaces where women try on swimming costumes etc. So not only top half exposure.

The cubicles are not private. It is possible to hear every word, every rustle, every murmur from the adjoining cubicle.

I do not want to hear a man having a bra fitted. And I certainly do not want him to hear me having a bra fitted.

Do the posters who think this is ok discuss the cup size and fullness of their breasts in the hearing of their friends' husbands? Do they talk about the comfort and fit of their bras with their brothers or fathers? Do they debate sexy bra details like lace or spaghetti straps while Steve from accounts is at the coffee machine? Fine, crack on. I don't.

Even if it's 'safe' in the sense that the bloke is on the other side of a locked cubicle door (let's leave aside the risk of secret filming for the moment even though we know it happens) his presence is an affront to the dignity and privacy of women.

Bugger off to the men's changing room.

This ^^

I definitely do NOT think it’s ok for a TW to fit a bra for me. I said that in terms of one having a fitting next to you, it won’t happen, as the cubicles are private.

Yes!

His motivation has got fuck all to do with my boundaries.

Yes. All of this rests on 'how men feel' about the issue.

Whether they feel they want/need/have the right to use women and women's spaces.

Women's feelings on the subject are dismissed. If they say 'no' to men they are sneered at as bigots, or prudes, or 'pearl clutchers', or hysterics.

I don't care if the man in there is an autogynophile, or if he is just in there to get a thrill but knows he's a man, or if he's a man who thinks he actually IS a woman, or if he's a man who is only a man but who likes dressing up as a woman part time, or if he's a man who is in there to intimidate the women in there.
I don't care.
NO man is entitled to be in a women's safe space, especially when intimate things are going on.
I don't care about the feelings that may or may not be in that man's head.
Because that's the only difference in all those scenarios.

They are ALL still men, and not a single one of them needs to be in a female changing room, bathroom, fitting room or anywhere else.

Even if he has tits that he paid for.

All bra fittings are done in private cubicles.

And if the bra fitter is a man, you're stuck in a private cubicle with them, up close and personal, talking about your breasts.

Or if you're a female shop assistant, you're stuck in a private cubicle with them, talking about their breasts.

I honestly have no idea how anyone would find this anything other than dodgy as fuck.

I find it odd that posters who claim to work in roles that involve violence against women and girls don't have a problem with dodgy blokes having access to women and girls.

To be fair we only have to look at the Roz Adams tribunal to see how entrenched "be kind" is in the women's sector, to the detriment of its primary role.

Women simpering on podcasts to misogynistic men about how rape victims should be "educated" for their wrongthink in wanting a female only rape counselling service.

Quite!

When in a changing room, even those with solid doors, you are still aware of conversations in surrounding cubicles. We all know and understand that when you know it will just be other women in a room/space, there is more of an ability to relax and feel comfortable - we understand and are familair with the conversations and concerns of other women - around their bodies/figures/clothing.

A male presence changes all of that. But we know this already. I just cannot work out why some women pretend not to.

So you think women and girls should be fine with a TW bra fitter because they’ll be in a cubicle with the door shut? Or in the next cubicle along from a male body speaking with a “lady-voice”? I don’t want to share the fitting room area with a male body, let alone be in a small cubicle with one with the door closed…

Or have an understanding of how/the ways in which male sexuality can be transgressive. The mechanics of it.