John Lewis 'allows trans women into bra-fitting rooms' as retailer hit by furious gender row

@quantumbutterfly check out the Guardian article I linked upthread yesterday morning.

I was a young & naive student when a transvestite ( the accepted term back then) came to my counter in the womens' clothing dept. His (large & v hairy) hands were shaking as he signed the payment slip. I assumed he was nervous, now I wonder if he was actually excited.

I am so over 'be kind'. I count myself lucky that my youth was over well before the social media age.

I thought so, @ArabellaScott

If you mean 'Kim' I'm afraid he does it on purpose to attract attention, he says as much in one video.

Oh I have seen it, once.

The first appearance of Culture club on TOTP. My mother looked up and asked, "Why don't these girls make themselves look pretty?"

That would be, what? The early 1980s?

Women don’t parade around in the fitting room area when trying on bras - at least not that I’ve ever experienced in all my years.
The males who perform as women seem to see the parading and being viewed as part of the process. Similarly to the way many transidentifying males appear to prefer peeing in the female cubicles with the door open.
The world (at least the female part of it) is their stage…

I mean the retail business under capitalism is not that difficult a concept. You have a good or a service, and people called "customers" give you money in exchange for that good or service. Customers also often give you helpful suggestions about things you can do that will encourage them to give you even more money.

If you're running a lingerie department, the overwhelming majority of your customers will be women.

If you're arranging your lingerie department to appeal to Eddie Izzard, you might be in the wrong business.

clomp, clomp, clomp, clomp. I thought the same thing.

The last time I went into an actual JL store (Oxford St), it was an awful experience. Bad enough that I actually complained.

Normally John Lewis is a cut above. This time absolutely bloody not.

It was a fairly uncomfortable experience, and I left without buying anything. In fact, I couldn't wait to leave.

I don't know if this is a result of them falling on harder times. But, if you're going to alienate your core customers, you can't be that shocked.

Yikes no more JL for me then!

The violation of our boundaries...

@TrainedByDinosaurs has there been a #bekind... 'they only want to shop for pretty clothes'.....?

Ooooh havent heard that one in at least a week.

Your assuming we cant all tell by just looking at them? The smell of them, the gait of them, the voice of them, the sheer size of them, the large hands, the hairline/wig, giant feet, and on and on and on.

We can tell.

Oh forgot we also got

• TW wouldn’t go to all that effort to transition so they could peek at naked women

is that a full set?

catching up on this thread and it felt like I was playing transactivist bingo, I got

• genital inspection
• middle class mumsnet
• they are going to do it anyway
• my [friend/ friends daughter] often mistaken for a man
• but what do TW do if we don’t let them do what they want
• you can’t tell who are transwomen
• NATWALT

what did I miss?

Oh and a poster insisting that only a highly specific example they devised would work for her to convince her senior friend in JL and we needed to provide a case fitting that.

Hmmmm what commitment?
Changing your "gender markers" on passport and drivers license? Easy as pie.
Changing your "gender markers" in the NHS? Easy as asking the receptionist.
Wearing a dress? Come on hardly difficult.
Wearing lipstick, see above.
Possibly paying £5 for a gender reassignment certificate? Hardly onerous.

Or did you think you had to go through some kind of process? Nope, nada, just say the words 'I am a woman now' and you are a woman.

If JL want to start providing that service, they are most welcome, I certainly wont protest it or try to prevent it, I dont care even. But women need female only places where it matters and bra fitting matters. So men of any gender can go into a mens only space to be fitted bras, by men workers.

How do we tell which are agp?
Who do we choose to play a part in the fetish?

And of course if a woman agrees for some weird reason to fit a Male, she is then consenting and the fetish loses its appeal.

All the women who don't mind men in the fitting rooms- that's nice - for you.

However, consent is not transferable and you don't consent for me, nor for most other women.

So what’s the answer then, women just put up with it until something does happen? Can you give a guarantee no transwoman is so,for anything less than innocent reasons. If not then why add that risk for women.
If this is to be believed and according to government figures, more than 74% of transgender inmates in British jails are in prison for sex crimes or violent crimes.
Now of course I’m not suggesting all transgender persons are likely to perpetrate such a crime but that % is not insignificant.
Is it really a risk worth taking ?

Very thoughtful of you.

It may be a cliche but it’s one worth repeating.

My OH used a unisex lavatory at a venue recently. There was quite a queue for the facilities and he was standing in between two women. He kept his eyes straight ahead hoping not to make any women feel awkward embarrassed etc. even though he said they kept looking at him a bit warily , in the end he came away and said,they clearly don’t feel comfortable my being there and I don’t want to be there.
It’s not only women who would prefer a male wasn’t in the same bathroom, men I’ve spoken to don’t want to be there either, for the woman’s sake.

But no one asks the people that actually matter…women.

It is amazing which side brings up genital inspections all the time, one might think there is some unsavoury agenda for doing so.

Not much cop walking in heels, is he?😂

I once left a cubicle in M&S early without buying precisely because a young teen was getting her first bra fitted next door. I could hear every word, and my heart went out to her. I felt too embarrassed by the level of detail and language being used to stay. It felt more respectful to her to give her some space and privacy, and relieve her of the likely uncomfortable consciousness that next door was occupied.