John Lewis 'allows trans women into bra-fitting rooms' as retailer hit by furious gender row

The sort of transwoman who will go for a bra fitting to get off on the intimacy and power imbalance is exactly the sort of, uhh, lady who will scream blue murder all over social media if the fitter says no. And probably get off on that too.

We’ve seen plenty of times that the instinctive response of businesses is to fall over, grovel, and blame the minimum wage employee.

So if I worked as a bra fitter for JL, and depended on that job to pay my bills, I would not feel able to say no, even if the arousal was clearly visible. I’d just get in with it and feel violated after.

Males don't need a bra. They don't need to be fitted. If they want one, they can measure themselves at home/ guess, like a lot of women do.

Of course shop workers 'have the same rights as anyone else' but this isn't about rights, is it? Everyone has the right to not be sexuality assaulted - that doesn't stop it happening!

This is about being supported by your employer and wider society to have reasonable boundaries. It's not at all clear that JL would support a woman employee in that situation. What she might consider sexual harassment, ie being stuck in a private space with a strange male (including trans women as they are male) and being expected to fit them for underwear, JL might consider to be 'all in a days work'.

I'm at a loss to see why anyone thinks this isn't a problem.
I can't imagine being stuck in a changing cubicle with a strange man - it would be terrifying.

As usual, it's putting the responsibility for enforcing boundaries in a difficult situation onto the woman, and blaming her if the man transgresses them 'why didn't you say no/run away/ leave him? ' 🤬

Edited to hopefully avoid breaking any rules.

I don’t work for John Lewis but I imagine any women refusing to fit a bra for a TW ie a man would be on the receiving end of screams of bigotry and a formal complaint. Given JL track record in this area, I imagine said women would either be sacked or sent for re-educating while JL issued humble heartfelt apologies and devoted their social media to TWAW for several weeks

I don't know how you could bring up the fact they were aroused in that situation without also mentioning their male anatomy. Which you can't mention.

@ReadingWorm do you work in retail? Do you - even better - have experience of bra fittings and what this entails. I was in my 40s before I was fitted - most people guess bra size. It's an intimate process.

Are you saying yes, fitting trans women for bras = no problem (I agree) and if they get dodgy then you can refuse and stop and there will be no issue even if you work for John Lewis who have not listened to previous staff concerns?

And I explained you can refuse to serve a trans woman (just as you can’t refuse to serve any customer) who ‘appears aroused’.

Shop workers have the same rights as anyone else.

I said 'appears aroused'. I assume they would have bottom half clothed? I cannot see that you can refuse without being in for a disciplinary fight. Is there a problem of women who are aroused or sexually assaulting bra fitters/other women in intimate single sex spaces? (The kink of being aroused by being treated as member of opposite sex does seen to be a male thing).

@ReadingWorm when 90% of trans women are intact and we know that sexual predators who are not trans (simply men testing things for gratification) use loopholes to gain access to female only spaces mine is a reasonable question. You might also consider how women often respond to sexual assault or threat.

Of course you can refuse. Just the same way you can refuse a woman who is aroused or sexually assaulting you.

Imagine having to fit a bra for an male who is intact and appears aroused. Could you refuse?

Even just the headline is confusing, though…
Transmen (ie biological females) may need/want a bra, and are welcome in female spaces (as they are female, regardless of their gender identity and expression).
Transwomen (ie biological males) may want/need a bra, and should be welcomed into a male space that caters for them (as they are male, regardless of how they identify and what surgery they have had).

Female and male bodies are different - regardless of what is added or removed by surgery or hormone intake.

Once again: any business that doesn't know who its customers are deserves to fail.