John Lewis 'allows trans women into bra-fitting rooms' as retailer hit by furious gender row

Nobody ‘needs’ access to a bra fitting service.

So women’s safety is important but TW’s safety isn’t?

If a TW needs or wants a bra fitting (breasts can be grown due to hormones rather than surgery) then agree this shouldn’t take place in a female changing room. But they shouldn’t be lumped in with men either. Violence against TW is a thing too. Please let’s not forget that most trans people just want to get on and live their lives in peace like the rest of us, and aren’t out to hurt anyone.

A third space? I can’t think of another answer that keeps everyone safe. And the right of the fitter to refuse to fit anyone they don’t feel comfortable with. It’s an intimate process after all.

I’m sure I’ll get labelled ‘woke’ for the view that everyone is entitled to privacy and their own personal safety, and no one’s rights trump anyone else’s.

Yep.

No female should be forced to be in a confined space with a man, whether he is pretending to be a woman or not.

So - who best to write to?

https://www.johnlewispartnership.media/contact

What you need to know (or your friend needs to know) is the JL policy. So ask her to look it up before you meet.

Exactly. Work the problem (male wants a bra) not by making women budge up, cede boundaries and be put at risk.

Women don't exist to gratify male fantasies.

Maybe Dad joke thinks that male shop attendants couldn't possibly fit a bra, as they don't have the correct lady essence....

Indeed! I means there’s no esoteric mystique to bra measuring that means only women can do it. No reason at all why male staff can’t be trained to do it on men

Trans men needing bras would use the female fitting rooms as they would have always done

If any transwomen wish to be fitted for a bra then that should be accommodated in the male fitting rooms, ideally with a male member of staff.

This assertion that 'trans women need a bra fitting service' really boils my piss.

How many men ever gave a toss about the provision of bra fitting services for women as something 'necessary'?

It's only since some men have become interested in using the service that it's suddenly deemed 'necessary'.

Well be hearing that 'it's their human right' next.

Thus demonstrating how society treats men and women differently.

Men's 'wants' are actually 'needs', especially when this colours with women's rights.

This is the problematic belief underlying sexism.

Ah DJ here with your usual nonsense

Im sure you can cite the evidence of this being the case for oooh years and yeeears

TM are women so are fine in women’s changing rooms

And, unlike you I susoect, years ago I did work in retail in a shop that had a number of regular TW customers. They never once asked to use the changing rooms. What they did is tell us what they were buying was for their mum and could they bring them back if she didn’t like it. We knew it was for them and they knew we knew and it was fine

back before this batshittery started

Men,it's men they're letting into their fitting rooms.

Trans women don't. If they have had breast implants then they will have the perfect cup size they paid for.

@ReadingWorm read the resignation letter

Of course trans men need bras and are welcome in women's fitting rooms - not sure why you've brought that up?

Trans women don't need bras. They want bras. There is a difference.

But I’m looking for the ‘real world’ example of a ‘lowly shop assistant’ refusing to serve an aroused man. Just like the example the previous poser gave.

It would really help he out if this real world example was true.

This is the case in every high street retailer and has been for years. Some trans men and trans women need to be fitted for bras, so of course they need access to a bra fitting service.

What about women who could not touch unknown males for religious reasons? Should they just tolerate it because men’s feelings trump theirs?

I’d first like to say that aged 8 I was flashed at by a man whilst walking to a friends house, and aged 12 another friend’s uncle grabbed my breasts and forced a kiss on me, telling me afterwards to keep it a secret or else he’d come after me. This is relevant.
Many years ago, when I was a 15 year old ‘Saturday Girl’ at British Home Stores in Manchester, I had the pleasure of working on the ladies changing room at the back of the store. Every week, at about 4.30, (we closed at 5) a group of men would come in, pick up lots of clothes from the women’s department and proceed to try them all on in the changing room. This room had 6 cubicles with curtains at each one, a central area with a mirror at the end then a right turn to the entrance, so the staff member (me) would be stood at the returns rail actually in the changing rooms unseen from other customers outside unless they actually walked in.
Sometimes there were a couple of men, sometimes 5 or 6. They would prance around in ladies underwear, touch each other up, swap clothes - always chose revealing items that they thought made them look ‘sexy’ 🤢. After a couple of weeks they asked me if I’d take some photos of them. I was 15, terrified of them, terrified of losing my job if I complained. They were clearly aroused by their cross dressing, and using me as a player in their fetish.
Bearing in mind my previous early encounters with men who were sexual abusers, I had absolutely no idea what to do. After about 6 weeks, another member of staff happened to come over to the changing rooms to check I’d tidied them properly at the end of the day. She saw these men - who by then were changed back into their own clothes - and told me off for letting them into the changing rooms! I still sometimes wake up in a cold sweat at the thought of these men.
My point is, men of any age, shape, sexual orientation or predilection for cross sex clothing will NEVER belong in changing rooms designated for women. And by ‘women’ let’s be clear, I mean adult human females. The only reason they would go in there is to feed their fetish. They don’t need bra fittings - how many women do actually have bra fittings? They don’t even need to try clothes on in public. I last used a communal changing room about 10 years ago!
Women should always say NO, and support each other.

I think there is something about this in the resignation letter. There is certainly stuff about men in the women's staff changing rooms and the lack of consent or even being asked.

grahamlinehan.substack.com/p/resignation-letter-from-a-john-lewis

A lot more TW are likely to want to shop for bras as more go on CSH and grow breasts.

It will be so tricky for bra fitters. As mentioned, it’s an intimate process. You’d have your ’shy’ younger autistic TWs looking for bras. You’d have the other kind. For both the JL fitter is in a small fitting room, up close and personal, generally fitting involves touching their body. No way of knowing their reaction. But certainly participating in their belief system that unequivocally impacts women and girls.

In my JL, which I’ve loved for decades, there was clearly a TW stocking items in the lingerie department. They looked so awkward. Clearly a 6’ something man. Wearing ‘female’ clothes and makeup. They looked uncomfortable and awkward themselves. I’m guessing autistic. Saw them just the once but never again in that department. Seemed really quite unhelpful for them and of course unfair on women shopping.

Feels to me that in this rush to be inclusive, the practical realities were never considered by senior JL staff and the only winners were the JL marketers.

It’s happened in the read world? I have a meeting with a woke senior leader in JL later this week. Could you send me a link to the real world example? This really would be the big ‘got ya’ I could use against her in the meeting. Thanks

I haven’t shopped at John Lewis for quite a few years. Not only because of this madness and the way they treat female employees and customers, but also because I still haven’t forgiven them for that advert. Why couldn’t the boy in the advert just have enjoyed dressing up? Why the aggression, trashing the place, the passive Mum and the passive daughter?

Well that puts me off shopping at JL again.

Didn’t there used to be post of a list of companies that have been taking over by this madness on here?

Meanwhile, back in the real world, if a lowly shop assistant refused to treat a TW on the basis of suspected arousal she’d either be sacked for discriminating against the most vulnerable/ marginalised minority or, if the company dared to stand up for her, they’d be splashed all over social media and receiving threats of legal action within the blink of an eye.

Customers can use whichever they feel most comfortable in........

I'm assuming this hasn't changed.

Has anyone been able to get a copy of the John Lewis policies on who is able to enter female fitting rooms and toilets? My requests have been ignored so far.